[Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20

[J. J.]

Hi Ellis,

Thanks to you and Peder for a good discussion. I think we are talking about 
the same thing here. I tried to point out the embedment of technology within 
the society. The way I see it, is that technology’s development and use 
follow the socially generated inequalities. So while discussions thanks to 
the Internet do take place in cyberspace, these are still same discussions 
we’ve had for millennia: us vs. them, let’s kill somebody because it will be 
good for us, our religion is the better religion etc … So while the medium 
has changed, the content of human interactions hasn’t. Therefore, I wrote 
that the Internet will only provide answers to questions asked outside of 
it. Does it make sense?

Again, thanks for the time you took to respond to this.
Jarek


>From: "Ellis Godard" <egodard at csun.edu>
>Reply-To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org, ellis.godard at csun.edu
>To: <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>, <air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org>
>Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:42:31 -0800
>
>Many disconnects in there, Peder. Being able to spread a message wider does
>not mean *actually* spreading it wider, and neither necessarily means 
>social
>change of any interesting variety or degree. Further, even if the web 
>allows
>hitherto unheard extremes to spread their messages wider to such an extent
>that social change is engendered, that could still be simply a replication
>of existing social divisions.
>
>On the other hand, I don't understand Jarek's argument that "cyberspace 
>will
>provide answers only to the point already determined (and allowed) in the
>world outside of it." I don't disagree; I'm simply not yet sure what it
>means. :)
>
>-eg
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: air-l-aoir.org-bounces at listserv.aoir.org
> > [mailto:air-l-aoir.org-bounces at listserv.aoir.org] On Behalf
> > Of Peder Are Jensen
> > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:31 AM
> > To: air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org
> > Subject: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
> >
> >
> > Hello, Jarek.
> >
> > Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it
> > can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways.
> > I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web
> > sites only replicate the existing social divisions." I
> > think they do more than that. I spend a lot of time
> > researching websites related to Islam or anything
> > Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative
> > ones, websites dealing with extremist militants
> > calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and
> > even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you
> > take the extremes on both ends of this, the most
> > violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these
> > are groups that would have a hard time getting their
> > message across in more traditional and conservative
> > media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering
> > such groups in a way that is significant, enabling
> > them to spread their message to wider audiences. At
> > the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social
> > changes already underway. It may even be creating
> > changes, even though I know many would reject such a
> > view as technological determinism. This includes hate
> > sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed
> > on the Internet Haganah.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800
> > From: "J. J." <japeks at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online
> > Hate Speech
> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org
> > Message-ID:
> > <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >
> > Hi Peder,
> >
> > I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace
> > or not. The web
> > sites
> > only replicate the existing social divisions. I've
> > checked the links
> > you
> > provided, and they don't help me understand the
> > phenomenon of the
> > “Islamic
> > extremists” much. I am not sure if that can be
> > understood without
> > active
> > participation of the other side either and those web
> > sites don't seem
> > to be
> > inviting any such discussion. My point then is that
> > cyberspace will
> > provide
> > answers only to the point already determined (and
> > allowed) in the world
> > outside of it.
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Jarek
> >
> >
> > >From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75 at yahoo.no>
> > >Reply-To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org
> > >To: air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org
> > >Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online
> > Hate Speech Date:
> > Mon,
> > >22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
> > >
> > > >From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University
> > of Oslo, Norway.
> > >Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities
> > online. Have you
> > tried
> > >looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can
> > track some of them
> > >through websites like these:
> > >
> > >http://www.jihadwatch.org/
> > >
> > >http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
> > >
> > >Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
> >
> >
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