[Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20

Tue Nov 30 23:58:20 PST 2004

Hi Ellis,

>Ah, that I understand! ...but don't believe. :)
>
>The content of interactions has certainly changed in some regards. For
>example, the proportion of content which is reflexive (about the content 
>and
>the interactions themselves) has increased. And reflexive content is
>distributed unevenly not only through time, but across different situations
>and relationships.

Before I answer the first question, could you please define "reflexive 
content?" I still believe that the content of our discussions maybe 
different but only to the extent that's allowed by the new medium (the 
technology part) and what we bring to the discussion from the outside world.

>I'm curious what you mean by the Internet providing answers to questions.
>Whatever changes the Internet represents, presents, and effects may
>contribute to answer-finding (and question asking) in indirect and even
>abstract ways.

I think I hold a pessimistic view here, and I am really greatful for your 
help in my own understanding of our discussion here. In our discussion, hate 
has been put in the context of Islamic extremists, which to me is a socially 
generated construct outside of the cyberspace. Even though we have this 
magnificent capability to connect, we don't connect to seek answers like: 
why we hate, or where Islamic extremists come from. Instead we put up web 
sites along the lines of power struggles, that have nothing to do with 
technology. So while I do agree that changes because of the Internet "may" 
contribute to "answer finding" the truth is that they simply don't. 
Technology and connectivity do not bring us equity, social justice, 
fairness, or whatever else that we think we all deserve. I don't think that 
technology has made us into better human beings at all.

Best ...
Jarek

>-eg
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: J. J. [mailto:japeks at hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:41 PM
> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org; ellis.godard at csun.edu
> > Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
> >
> >
> > Hi Ellis,
> >
> > Thanks to you and Peder for a good discussion. I think we are
> > talking about
> > the same thing here. I tried to point out the embedment of
> > technology within
> > the society. The way I see it, is that technology's
> > development and use
> > follow the socially generated inequalities. So while
> > discussions thanks to
> > the Internet do take place in cyberspace, these are still
> > same discussions
> > we've had for millennia: us vs. them, let's kill somebody
> > because it will be
> > good for us, our religion is the better religion etc . So
> > while the medium
> > has changed, the content of human interactions hasn't.
> > Therefore, I wrote
> > that the Internet will only provide answers to questions
> > asked outside of
> > it. Does it make sense?
> >
> > Again, thanks for the time you took to respond to this.
> > Jarek
> >
> >
> > >From: "Ellis Godard" <egodard at csun.edu>
> > >Reply-To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org, ellis.godard at csun.edu
> > >To: <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>, <air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org>
> > >Subject: RE: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
> > >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:42:31 -0800
> > >
> > >Many disconnects in there, Peder. Being able to spread a
> > message wider
> > >does not mean *actually* spreading it wider, and neither necessarily
> > >means social change of any interesting variety or degree.
> > Further, even
> > >if the web allows
> > >hitherto unheard extremes to spread their messages wider to
> > such an extent
> > >that social change is engendered, that could still be simply
> > a replication
> > >of existing social divisions.
> > >
> > >On the other hand, I don't understand Jarek's argument that
> > "cyberspace
> > >will
> > >provide answers only to the point already determined (and
> > allowed) in the
> > >world outside of it." I don't disagree; I'm simply not yet
> > sure what it
> > >means. :)
> > >
> > >-eg
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: air-l-aoir.org-bounces at listserv.aoir.org
> > > > [mailto:air-l-aoir.org-bounces at listserv.aoir.org] On
> > Behalf Of Peder
> > > > Are Jensen
> > > > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:31 AM
> > > > To: air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org
> > > > Subject: [Air-l] Re: Air-l-aoir.org Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello, Jarek.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, hate is basically socially generated. However, it
> > > > can also be strengthened or weakened in various ways.
> > > > I am not sure whether I fully agree with you that "web sites only
> > > > replicate the existing social divisions." I think they do
> > more than
> > > > that. I spend a lot of time researching websites related
> > to Islam or
> > > > anything Islamic. From all possible angles, both conservative
> > > > ones, websites dealing with extremist militants
> > > > calling for Jihad, reformist and secularist ones and
> > > > even websites of people rejecting Islam. Now, if you
> > > > take the extremes on both ends of this, the most
> > > > violent Islamists and radical Islam-rejecters, these
> > > > are groups that would have a hard time getting their
> > > > message across in more traditional and conservative
> > > > media. I do think the Internet itself is empowering
> > > > such groups in a way that is significant, enabling
> > > > them to spread their message to wider audiences. At
> > > > the very least, the web is greatly facilitating social
> > > > changes already underway. It may even be creating
> > > > changes, even though I know many would reject such a
> > > > view as technological determinism. This includes hate
> > > > sites, such as those Islamic militant sites decsribed
> > > > on the Internet Haganah.
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents.
> > > >
> > > > Yous sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:21:00 -0800
> > > > From: "J. J." <japeks at hotmail.com>
> > > > Subject: RE: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online
> > > > Hate Speech
> > > > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <BAY23-F37A0D77B14B2C3695B4C4CC9B90 at phx.gbl>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > > Hi Peder,
> > > >
> > > > I think that "hate" is socially generated, cyberspace
> > > > or not. The web
> > > > sites
> > > > only replicate the existing social divisions. I've
> > > > checked the links
> > > > you
> > > > provided, and they don't help me understand the
> > > > phenomenon of the
> > > > "Islamic
> > > > extremists" much. I am not sure if that can be
> > > > understood without
> > > > active
> > > > participation of the other side either and those web
> > > > sites don't seem
> > > > to be
> > > > inviting any such discussion. My point then is that
> > cyberspace will
> > > > provide
> > > > answers only to the point already determined (and
> > > > allowed) in the world
> > > > outside of it.
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Jarek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: Peder Are Jensen <pajensen75 at yahoo.no>
> > > > >Reply-To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org
> > > > >To: air-l-aoir.org at listserv.aoir.org
> > > > >Subject: [Air-l] 1. Re: Virtual Ethnicities/Online
> > > > Hate Speech Date:
> > > > Mon,
> > > > >22 Nov 2004 17:27:26 +0100 (CET)
> > > > >
> > > > > >From Peder Jensen, Master Student at the University
> > > > of Oslo, Norway.
> > > > >Charles Ess mentioned searching for hate communities
> > > > online. Have you
> > > > tried
> > > > >looking at websites by Islamic extremists? You can
> > > > track some of them
> > > > >through websites like these:
> > > > >
> > > > >http://www.jihadwatch.org/
> > > > >
> > > > >http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/
> > > > >
> > > > >Yours sincerely, Mr. Peder Jensen.
> > > >
> > > >
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