[Air-L] Air-L Digest, Vol 177, Issue 27
Katrin Tiidenberg
katrin.tiidenberg at gmail.com
Wed Apr 24 11:37:14 PDT 2019
Hi all,
Charles, in a more recent text compared to those mentioned, but a very popular one Nicholas Carr uses Phaedrus in the chapter where he argues that intellectual technologies (map, compass, writing, and then later the internet) change how people think and their actual brains. He says “It (writing) was a revolution that would eventually change the lives, and the brains, of nearly everyone on earth, but the transformation was not welcomed by everyone, at least not at first,” and then launches into Phaedrus, among other things writing: “Should the Egyptians learn to write, Thamus goes on, “it will implant forgetfulness in their souls: they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to rememberance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks.” The written word is: “a recipe not for memory but for reminder. And it is not true wisdom that you offer your diciples, but only its semblance.” Carr doesn’t call it a moral panic (his is a technologically determinist take, so I suppose he wouldn’t), but he later says that while “Socrates may have been mistaken about the effect of writing, but he was wise to warn us against taking memory’s treasures for granted. His prophecy of a tool that would “implant forgetfulness” in the mind, providing “a recipe not for memory but for reminder,” has gained new currency with the coming of the Web.
So I suppose it could be argued that Carr uses Phaedrus to further his, arguably anxious or panicky, interpretation of the effects of the internet.
best,
Kat
Katrin Tiidenberg, PhD
Associate Professor of Visual Culture and Social Media, Tallinn University, Estonia
Founding member of Estonian Young Academy of Sciences
Secretary of AoIR
Books: Selfies, why we love (and hate) them. // Ihu ja hingega internetis, kuidas mõista sotsiaalmeediat.
Just published: Tiidenberg, K; Paasonen, S. (2018). Littles: affects and aesthetics in sexual age-play. Sexuality & Culture // Tiidenberg, K; Allaste, A-A. (2018). LGBT activism in Estonia: Identities, enactment and perceptions of LGBT people. Sexualities, 1−18.
more info: http://kkatot.tumblr.com/
> On Apr 24, 2019, at 9:09 PM, air-l-request at listserv.aoir.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Charles M. Ess)
> 2. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Thomas Ball)
> 3. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Jason Archer)
> 4. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (AMPARO LASEN DIAZ)
> 5. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Nathanael Bassett)
> 6. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Charles M. Ess)
> 7. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Charles M. Ess)
> 8. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Charles M. Ess)
> 9. Re: history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media
> panic? (Mark D. Johns)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:37:04 +0200
> From: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> To: air-l <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID: <ba2b9dd0-dfb0-f7f0-7faa-5b384b08381a at media.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear AoIRists,
>
> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this instance.
>
> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>
> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
> in looking them over.
>
> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>
> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
> communication studies.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
> best,
> - charles ess
>
> PS: The short list includes:
> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
> contradictory.
> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
> And so on.
> Again: what am I missing?
>
> Again, many thanks,
> - c.
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:50:41 -0400
> From: Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com>
> To: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> Cc: air-l <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID:
> <CAFGTeKBuXzJpt9q0vuCA-urhyZPUuZB0GWPD6cy+YrNjuMj19Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Dr Ess-
> This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient potential
> respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles exemplifying
> "moral / media panics that
> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
> As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
> Thank you,
> Best regards,
> Thomas
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear AoIRists,
>>
>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>> instance.
>>
>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>
>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
>> in looking them over.
>>
>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>
>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>> communication studies.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>> best,
>> - charles ess
>>
>> PS: The short list includes:
>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>> contradictory.
>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>> And so on.
>> Again: what am I missing?
>>
>> Again, many thanks,
>> - c.
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:02:39 -0500
> From: Jason Archer <jarche2 at uic.edu>
> To: Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>, air-l
> <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID:
> <CABrcqg0o5nZp683VbMGhLS5eBH+TfgbBEHbPzUAyFyYsW6rZrQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Dear Dr. Ess,
>
> The trope might stem from Nehamas and Woodruff's 1995 translation of
> Phaedrus which includes a discussion in the introduction about interpreting
> the section as "concerning the trustworthiness of a new and not yet
> understood mode of communication in comparison to that of an accepted
> medium" p. xxxvi. But that is only conjecture.
>
> Take care,
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 11:53 AM Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dr Ess-
>> This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient potential
>> respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles exemplifying
>> "moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
>> As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
>> Thank you,
>> Best regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear AoIRists,
>>>
>>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>>> instance.
>>>
>>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>>
>>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
>>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
>>> in looking them over.
>>>
>>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>>
>>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>>> communication studies.
>>>
>>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>>> best,
>>> - charles ess
>>>
>>> PS: The short list includes:
>>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
>>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
>>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
>>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>>> contradictory.
>>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>>> And so on.
>>> Again: what am I missing?
>>>
>>> Again, many thanks,
>>> - c.
>>> --
>>> Professor in Media Studies
>>> Department of Media and Communication
>>> University of Oslo
>>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>>
>>> Postboks 1093
>>> Blindern 0317
>>> Oslo, Norway
>>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>
>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:26:29 +0200
> From: AMPARO LASEN DIAZ <alasen at cps.ucm.es>
> To: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> Cc: AoiR list <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+xFsz735hiyAVwvOCCqBB6UgkAEojfjTNtChCki62NJC_SXvQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Dear Charles and Aoir list,
>
> I think this relates to the link between writing and memory and Plato's
> account of Socrate's consideration of writing as pharmakon, a greek term
> meaning remedy and poison. So for instance, writing could allow for
> preparing speeches, and being persuasive, beyond the power of one's own
> memory, thus being a remedy for the limitations of our capacity to
> memorize. But at the same time if we rely on writing and stop memorizing,
> people, specially young learners could lose or reduce the capacity of their
> memory. Derrida aldo deploys the idea of writing as pharmakon. The moral
> panic not only relates to losing the training of memory, but also to the
> moral value Socrates and Plato give to memory and to learning by memory,
> which will aldo be lost if young pupils rely mainly on writing instead
> of memory and orality. This reflection and considerations are places in
> Socrate's and Plato's critique of sofistes, a kind of professional writers
> producing speeches and persuasive arguments, acused of not being guided by
> the pursuit of truth but by spurious or manipulative interests
>
> Hope it could help, just a quick answer from my memories of reading that
> text.
>
> All the best
>
> Amparo Lasen
>
>
>
> El mi?., 24 abr. 2019 18:38, Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> escribi?:
>
>> Dear AoIRists,
>>
>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>> instance.
>>
>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>
>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
>> in looking them over.
>>
>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>
>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>> communication studies.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>> best,
>> - charles ess
>>
>> PS: The short list includes:
>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>> contradictory.
>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>> And so on.
>> Again: what am I missing?
>>
>> Again, many thanks,
>> - c.
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:33:09 -0500
> From: Nathanael Bassett <nbasse2 at uic.edu>
> To: Jason Archer <jarche2 at uic.edu>
> Cc: Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com>, air-l <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID: <D614CB3F-66CE-49B4-8171-CFF273091F1D at uic.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Neil Postman uses Phaedrus to start off his critique of technology in Technopoly (1992). not sure if he got the idea from elsewhere though.
>
> Nathanael Bassett
> (sent via iPad)
>
>> On Apr 24, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Jason Archer <jarche2 at uic.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dr. Ess,
>>
>> The trope might stem from Nehamas and Woodruff's 1995 translation of
>> Phaedrus which includes a discussion in the introduction about interpreting
>> the section as "concerning the trustworthiness of a new and not yet
>> understood mode of communication in comparison to that of an accepted
>> medium" p. xxxvi. But that is only conjecture.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 11:53 AM Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dr Ess-
>>> This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient potential
>>> respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles exemplifying
>>> "moral / media panics that
>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
>>> As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
>>> Thank you,
>>> Best regards,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear AoIRists,
>>>>
>>>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>>>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>>>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>>>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>>>> instance.
>>>>
>>>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>>>
>>>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
>>>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
>>>> in looking them over.
>>>>
>>>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>>>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>>>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>>>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>>>
>>>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>>>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>>>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>>>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>>>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>>>> communication studies.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>>>> best,
>>>> - charles ess
>>>>
>>>> PS: The short list includes:
>>>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
>>>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>>>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>>>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>>>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>>>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>>>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>>>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>>>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>>>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>>>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>>>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
>>>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>>>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
>>>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>>>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>>>> contradictory.
>>>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>>>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>>>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>>>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>>>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>>>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>>>> And so on.
>>>> Again: what am I missing?
>>>>
>>>> Again, many thanks,
>>>> - c.
>>>> --
>>>> Professor in Media Studies
>>>> Department of Media and Communication
>>>> University of Oslo
>>>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>>>
>>>> Postboks 1093
>>>> Blindern 0317
>>>> Oslo, Norway
>>>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>>
>>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>
>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:41:17 +0200
> From: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> To: Nathanael Bassett <nbasse2 at uic.edu>, Jason Archer
> <jarche2 at uic.edu>
> Cc: air-l <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID: <b9506200-31c3-f887-4025-e52b32b19590 at media.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Yes, great - perfect. But Postman (so far as I've read) doesn't use
> this as an example of moral panic in support of a larger argument
> against technology / technological usage of X. On the contrary, he is
> careful to point out that the story includes arguments pro and con, and
> so is instructive for how debate in a technological society should proceed.
>
> But perhaps this was a source for subsequent use in moral / media panic
> discourse?
>
> again, thanks,
> - c.
>
> On 24/04/2019 19:33, Nathanael Bassett wrote:
>> Neil Postman uses Phaedrus to start off his critique of technology in Technopoly (1992). not sure if he got the idea from elsewhere though.
>>
>> Nathanael Bassett
>> (sent via iPad)
>>
>>> On Apr 24, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Jason Archer <jarche2 at uic.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Dr. Ess,
>>>
>>> The trope might stem from Nehamas and Woodruff's 1995 translation of
>>> Phaedrus which includes a discussion in the introduction about interpreting
>>> the section as "concerning the trustworthiness of a new and not yet
>>> understood mode of communication in comparison to that of an accepted
>>> medium" p. xxxvi. But that is only conjecture.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 11:53 AM Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dr Ess-
>>>> This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient potential
>>>> respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles exemplifying
>>>> "moral / media panics that
>>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
>>>> As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear AoIRists,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>>>>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>>>>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>>>>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>>>>> instance.
>>>>>
>>>>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>>>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>>>>
>>>>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long list of
>>>>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and interest
>>>>> in looking them over.
>>>>>
>>>>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>>>>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>>>>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>>>>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>>>>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>>>>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>>>>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>>>>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>>>>> communication studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>>>>> best,
>>>>> - charles ess
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: The short list includes:
>>>>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of the
>>>>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>>>>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>>>>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>>>>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>>>>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>>>>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>>>>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>>>>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>>>>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>>>>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>>>>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a mythos
>>>>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>>>>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when interlocutors,
>>>>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>>>>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>>>>> contradictory.
>>>>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>>>>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>>>>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>>>>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>>>>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>>>>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>>>>> And so on.
>>>>> Again: what am I missing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, many thanks,
>>>>> - c.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Professor in Media Studies
>>>>> Department of Media and Communication
>>>>> University of Oslo
>>>>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Postboks 1093
>>>>> Blindern 0317
>>>>> Oslo, Norway
>>>>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>>>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>>>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>>
>>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>>
>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:45:44 +0200
> From: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> To: Thomas Ball <xtc283 at gmail.com>
> Cc: air-l <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID: <0ce9989b-27c3-5d68-608e-6bb74a1f3389 at media.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Thomas,
>
> thanks, and forgive me for being somewhat vague in this regard.
> I'm reluctant to provide specific examples because my intent is not to
> develop or direct a critique against specific authors / colleagues, or
> even give the impression thereof. It is rather, as stated, a genuine
> concern that I've missed something somehow and am curious about the
> history of the trope.
>
> So perhaps a generic description will do? An author/s seek to build a
> case that criticisms of a specific new media technology / use are
> somehow off the mark or misleading as the these criticisms can rather be
> understood to fit the model of a media panic. E.g., Tindr and other
> hook-up apps are not necessarily the end of real romance and deep
> relationships; these reactions are rather a media panic - one that
> overlooks several positives uncovered by more careful / empirical analysis.
>
> To be sure, such an account can be built - and, in my reading, often so
> - quite carefully and successfully.
>
> Often, these accounts (rightly) draw on Kirsten Drotner's Dangerous
> Media? Panic Discourses and Dilemmas of Modernity, Paedagogica
> Historica: International Journal of the History of Education, 35:3, 593-619
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/0030923990350303
> To be explicit, Kirsten does _not_ invoke Plato or the Phaedrus, but
> rather begins her exquisite account with panics surrounding print media.
> In addition, building in part on the work of Stanley Cohen (1972),
> Kirsten develops a very helpful taxonomy of primary criteria of such panics.
>
> At least on occasion, however, as the argument continues, in providing a
> few examples of earlier moral / media panics to helpfully illustrate
> what these are, an author will further invoke the mythos of the
> invention of writing in the Phaedrus as just such an example of a media
> / moral panic. Doing so aims at establishing a (broad) conclusion to
> the effect that we always panic with the emergence of new media - but
> this is more or less absurd, i.e., look at Plato's critique of writing.
> By the same token, critiques of new technology X (e.g., Tindr, but the
> list is all but endless, of course) are (ridiculous) media / moral
> panics and so critiques of new technology X can be easily dismissed.
>
> (There's a second logical problem in at least some examples of this
> argument - namely, the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Roughly:
> If you have a strong example of a moral / media panic --> (then) you
> will find X out of Y criteria (as listed by Drotner and/or others).
> SO: if I find X out of Y criteria surrounding media coverage of new
> technology x --> THEN I can conclude the criticisms included here are
> but instances of moral panic and, by implication, deserve no further
> attention.
> This is a variation of the social science chestnut that correlation does
> not equal causation.)
>
> I hope this helps give a better sense of the argument strand / trope I'm
> curious about?
>
> Again, many thanks
> - c.
>
> On 24/04/2019 18:50, Thomas Ball wrote:
>> Dr Ess-
>> ? ?This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient
>> potential respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles
>> exemplifying "moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
>> ? ?As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
>> Thank you,
>> Best regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear AoIRists,
>>
>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>> Greek.? I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>> instance.
>>
>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>
>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
>> list of
>> reasons.? I include a short list below for anyone with time and
>> interest
>> in looking them over.
>>
>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>
>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>> communication studies.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>> best,
>> - charles ess
>>
>> PS: The short list includes:
>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of
>> the
>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>> dissimulation.? By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
>> mythos
>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
>> interlocutors,
>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>> contradictory.
>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>> And so on.
>> Again: what am I missing?
>>
>> Again, many thanks,
>> - c.
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
>> list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:52:00 +0200
> From: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> To: AMPARO LASEN DIAZ <alasen at cps.ucm.es>
> Cc: AoiR list <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID: <ac1124e2-b165-0ee8-21b1-e935b428197f at media.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear Amparo,
>
> many thanks - an excellent summary
>
> On 24/04/2019 19:26, AMPARO LASEN DIAZ wrote:
>> Dear Charles and Aoir list,
>>
>> I think this relates to the link between writing and memory and Plato's
>> account of Socrate's consideration of writing as pharmakon, a greek term
>> meaning remedy and poison. So for instance, writing could allow for
>> preparing speeches, and being persuasive, beyond the power of one's own
>> memory, thus being a remedy for the limitations of our capacity to
>> memorize.
> Yes, precisely - this is the object lesson, I would argue, that Socrates
> (as re-presented by Plato) is attempting to urge on the young Phaedrus,
> who, it may be argued, runs the risk of being overly impressed / taken
> with what he can do with this relatively new technology.
>
>
>> But at the same time if we rely on writing and stop
>> memorizing, people, specially young learners could lose or reduce the
>> capacity of their memory.
> Yes, but this is to some degree a strawman, i.e., a fasle either/or that
> I don't see in the original story - as Postman also points out.
>
>> Derrida aldo deploys the idea of writing as
>> pharmakon. The moral panic not only relates to losing the training of
>> memory, but also to the moral value Socrates and Plato give to memory
>> and to learning by memory, which will aldo be lost if young pupils rely
>> mainly on? ?writing? instead of memory and orality. This reflection and
>> considerations are places in Socrate's and Plato's critique of sofistes,
>> a kind of professional writers producing speeches and persuasive
>> arguments, acused of not being guided by the pursuit of truth? but by
>> spurious or manipulative interests
> Again, spot on, so far as I can tell / recall - but none of this fits
> with moral or media panic _per se_, as I try to make somewhat clearer in
> my response to Thomas Ball.
>>
>> Hope it could help, just a quick answer from my memories of reading that
>> text.
> It helps me at least enormously. Again, many thanks!
> - c.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Amparo Lasen
>>
>>
>>
>> El mi?., 24 abr. 2019 18:38, Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> escribi?:
>>
>> Dear AoIRists,
>>
>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>> Greek.? I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>> instance.
>>
>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>
>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
>> list of
>> reasons.? I include a short list below for anyone with time and
>> interest
>> in looking them over.
>>
>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>
>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>> communication studies.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>> best,
>> - charles ess
>>
>> PS: The short list includes:
>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of
>> the
>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>> dissimulation.? By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
>> mythos
>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
>> interlocutors,
>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>> contradictory.
>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>> And so on.
>> Again: what am I missing?
>>
>> Again, many thanks,
>> - c.
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
>> list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>
>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 13:08:55 -0500
> From: "Mark D. Johns" <mjohns at luther.edu>
> To: "Charles M. Ess" <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> Cc: AoiR list <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral /
> media panic?
> Message-ID:
> <CAHKCqnBgmWb_6ghXBRddVG+Eaq8xndUiwLroymOvh4+iXAmU2A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Walter Ong draws on Phaedrus in his 1982 Orality & Literacy. He may be
> the one who opened the box. However, Ong does not address moral panic,
> merely the contrast between orality and literacy, and the suspicion of
> all new media.
> --
> Mark D. Johns, Ph.D.
> Professor Emeritus of Communication Studies
> at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa USA
> now residing in Minneapolis, MN
> -----------------------------------------------
> "Get the facts first. You can distort them later."
> ---Mark Twain
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Amparo,
>>
>> many thanks - an excellent summary
>>
>> On 24/04/2019 19:26, AMPARO LASEN DIAZ wrote:
>>> Dear Charles and Aoir list,
>>>
>>> I think this relates to the link between writing and memory and Plato's
>>> account of Socrate's consideration of writing as pharmakon, a greek term
>>> meaning remedy and poison. So for instance, writing could allow for
>>> preparing speeches, and being persuasive, beyond the power of one's own
>>> memory, thus being a remedy for the limitations of our capacity to
>>> memorize.
>> Yes, precisely - this is the object lesson, I would argue, that Socrates
>> (as re-presented by Plato) is attempting to urge on the young Phaedrus,
>> who, it may be argued, runs the risk of being overly impressed / taken
>> with what he can do with this relatively new technology.
>>
>>
>>> But at the same time if we rely on writing and stop
>>> memorizing, people, specially young learners could lose or reduce the
>>> capacity of their memory.
>> Yes, but this is to some degree a strawman, i.e., a fasle either/or that
>> I don't see in the original story - as Postman also points out.
>>
>>> Derrida aldo deploys the idea of writing as
>>> pharmakon. The moral panic not only relates to losing the training of
>>> memory, but also to the moral value Socrates and Plato give to memory
>>> and to learning by memory, which will aldo be lost if young pupils rely
>>> mainly on writing instead of memory and orality. This reflection and
>>> considerations are places in Socrate's and Plato's critique of sofistes,
>>> a kind of professional writers producing speeches and persuasive
>>> arguments, acused of not being guided by the pursuit of truth but by
>>> spurious or manipulative interests
>> Again, spot on, so far as I can tell / recall - but none of this fits
>> with moral or media panic _per se_, as I try to make somewhat clearer in
>> my response to Thomas Ball.
>>>
>>> Hope it could help, just a quick answer from my memories of reading that
>>> text.
>> It helps me at least enormously. Again, many thanks!
>> - c.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> Amparo Lasen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El mi?., 24 abr. 2019 18:38, Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>>> <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> escribi?:
>>>
>>> Dear AoIRists,
>>>
>>> Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>>> training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>>> Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>>> regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>>> instance.
>>>
>>> I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>>> consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>>
>>> This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
>>> list of
>>> reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and
>>> interest
>>> in looking them over.
>>>
>>> The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>>> has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>>> mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>>> prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>>
>>> This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>>> I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>>> trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>>> somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>>> those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>>> communication studies.
>>>
>>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>>> best,
>>> - charles ess
>>>
>>> PS: The short list includes:
>>> 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of
>>> the
>>> larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>>> beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>>> Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>>> initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>>> immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>>> likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>>> dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>>> 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>>> translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>>> philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>>> contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
>>> mythos
>>> is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>>> strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
>>> interlocutors,
>>> attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>>> The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>>> contradictory.
>>> 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>>> sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>>> believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>>> Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>>> presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>>> vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>>> And so on.
>>> Again: what am I missing?
>>>
>>> Again, many thanks,
>>> - c.
>>> --
>>> Professor in Media Studies
>>> Department of Media and Communication
>>> University of Oslo
>>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>>
>>> Postboks 1093
>>> Blindern 0317
>>> Oslo, Norway
>>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
>>> list
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>>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>>> http://www.aoir.org/
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>>
>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> http://www.aoir.org/
>
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