[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Aaron Hung
aaron.chiayuanhung at gmail.com
Wed Apr 24 11:29:13 PDT 2019
You might also want to look into Eric Havelock's *Preface to Plato
<https://monoskop.org/images/0/0d/Havelock_Eric_A_Preface_to_Plato.pdf>*.
Ong draws on him a lot but I'm less familiar with it myself so I'm not sure
how that argument developed.
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 2:26 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> wrote:
> Thanks in turn for the reference! And you, along with Mark Johns, may
> well be onto something here - somewhere between Ong and Postman at least
> some version of the mythos becomes familiar to folk ... and somewhere
> along the line it gets appropriated, if in a (necessarily) simplified
> version, into discourse on moral / media panics.
> But where / when / and by whom?
>
> Again, just curious - and concerned that I may be missing an important
> set of arguments somewhere.
>
> best,
> - c.
>
>
>
> On 24/04/2019 20:12, Aaron Hung wrote:
> > What a fascinating discussion! And coincidentally, I came across this
> > just last night when reading /Paper /by Mark Kurlansky.
> >
> > In terms of how this notion of moral panic has been attributed, fairly
> > or not and accurate or not, to Plato, I trace my own familiarity to this
> > argument to my first introduction to Walter Ong, who wrote in /Orality
> > and Literacy
> > <
> http://dss-edit.com/prof-anon/sound/library/Ong_orality_and_literacy.pdf>:
>
> > "/Writing, Plato has Socrates say in the /Phaedrus/, is inhuman,
> > pretending to establish outside the mind what in reality can be only in
> > the mind. It is a thing, a manufactured product. The same of course is
> > said of computers. Secondly, Plato’s Socrates urges, writing destroys
> > memory. Those who use writing will become forgetful, relying on an
> > external resource for what they lack in internal resources. Writing
> > weakens the mind. Today, parents and others fear that pocket calculators
> > provide an external resource for what ought to be the internal resource
> > of memorized multiplication tables. Calculators weaken the mind, relieve
> > it of the work that keeps it strong. Thirdly, a written text is
> > basically unresponsive. If you ask a person to explain his or her
> > statement, you can get an explanation; if you ask a text, you get back
> > nothing except the same, often stupid, words which called for your
> > question in the first place. In the modern critique of the computer, the
> > same objection is put, ‘Garbage in, garbage out’. Fourthly, in keeping
> > with the agonistic mentality of oral cultures, Plato’s Socrates also
> > holds it against writing that the written word cannot defend itself as
> > the natural spoken word can: real speech and thought always exist
> > essentially in a context of give-and-take between real persons.Writing
> > is passive, out of it, in an unreal, unnatural world. So are
> > computers...." (p. 78).
> >
> > This juxtaposition between what Plato said about writing and how people
> > said/say about computers may have led to some of the comparisons
> > you mentioned.
> >
> > - Aaron Hung
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 1:56 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Thomas,
> >
> > thanks, and forgive me for being somewhat vague in this regard.
> > I'm reluctant to provide specific examples because my intent is not
> to
> > develop or direct a critique against specific authors / colleagues,
> or
> > even give the impression thereof. It is rather, as stated, a genuine
> > concern that I've missed something somehow and am curious about the
> > history of the trope.
> >
> > So perhaps a generic description will do? An author/s seek to build
> a
> > case that criticisms of a specific new media technology / use are
> > somehow off the mark or misleading as the these criticisms can
> > rather be
> > understood to fit the model of a media panic. E.g., Tindr and other
> > hook-up apps are not necessarily the end of real romance and deep
> > relationships; these reactions are rather a media panic - one that
> > overlooks several positives uncovered by more careful / empirical
> > analysis.
> >
> > To be sure, such an account can be built - and, in my reading, often
> so
> > - quite carefully and successfully.
> >
> > Often, these accounts (rightly) draw on Kirsten Drotner's Dangerous
> > Media? Panic Discourses and Dilemmas of Modernity, Paedagogica
> > Historica: International Journal of the History of Education, 35:3,
> > 593-619
> > http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/0030923990350303
> > To be explicit, Kirsten does _not_ invoke Plato or the Phaedrus, but
> > rather begins her exquisite account with panics surrounding print
> > media.
> > In addition, building in part on the work of Stanley Cohen (1972),
> > Kirsten develops a very helpful taxonomy of primary criteria of such
> > panics.
> >
> > At least on occasion, however, as the argument continues, in
> > providing a
> > few examples of earlier moral / media panics to helpfully illustrate
> > what these are, an author will further invoke the mythos of the
> > invention of writing in the Phaedrus as just such an example of a
> media
> > / moral panic. Doing so aims at establishing a (broad) conclusion to
> > the effect that we always panic with the emergence of new media - but
> > this is more or less absurd, i.e., look at Plato's critique of
> writing.
> > By the same token, critiques of new technology X (e.g., Tindr, but
> the
> > list is all but endless, of course) are (ridiculous) media / moral
> > panics and so critiques of new technology X can be easily dismissed.
> >
> > (There's a second logical problem in at least some examples of this
> > argument - namely, the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Roughly:
> > If you have a strong example of a moral / media panic --> (then) you
> > will find X out of Y criteria (as listed by Drotner and/or others).
> > SO: if I find X out of Y criteria surrounding media coverage of new
> > technology x --> THEN I can conclude the criticisms included here are
> > but instances of moral panic and, by implication, deserve no further
> > attention.
> > This is a variation of the social science chestnut that correlation
> > does
> > not equal causation.)
> >
> > I hope this helps give a better sense of the argument strand / trope
> > I'm
> > curious about?
> >
> > Again, many thanks
> > - c.
> >
> > On 24/04/2019 18:50, Thomas Ball wrote:
> > > Dr Ess-
> > > This is a challenging query. One thing that might help orient
> > > potential respondents would be for you to cite one or two articles
> > > exemplifying "moral / media panics that
> > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing."
> > > As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
> > > Thank you,
> > > Best regards,
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess
> > <c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear AoIRists,
> > >
> > > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal
> > academic
> > > training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and
> > ancient
> > > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears
> > with
> > > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in
> > this
> > > instance.
> > >
> > > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
> > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of
> writing.
> > >
> > > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a
> long
> > > list of
> > > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time
> and
> > > interest
> > > in looking them over.
> > >
> > > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when -
> > introduced what
> > > has apparently become received tradition in these domains
> > that the
> > > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the
> > Phaedrus is a
> > > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> > >
> > > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative
> > inquiry.
> > > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding
> > how this
> > > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I
> > may have
> > > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and
> > obvious for
> > > those of you with academic training more directly within
> > media and
> > > communication studies.
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
> > > best,
> > > - charles ess
> > >
> > > PS: The short list includes:
> > > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the
> > context of
> > > the
> > > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger
> > context -
> > > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress
> > (perhaps seduce)
> > > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a
> > scroll and
> > > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much
> > more
> > > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically
> > speaking,
> > > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
> > > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing
> > per se.
> > > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too
> easily
> > > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a
> technical /
> > > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways
> directly
> > > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false
> story; a
> > > mythos
> > > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of
> distinctive
> > > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
> > > interlocutors,
> > > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an
> > impass.
> > > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often
> > complementary, not
> > > contradictory.
> > > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple
> dialogues, of
> > > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to
> > sincerely
> > > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect
> technology.
> > > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the
> > consistent
> > > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use
> > of mythos
> > > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral
> panic.
> > > And so on.
> > > Again: what am I missing?
> > >
> > > Again, many thanks,
> > > - c.
> > > --
> > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > University of Oslo
> > > <
> http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> > >
> > > Postboks 1093
> > > Blindern 0317
> > > Oslo, Norway
> > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org>>
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> >
> > --
> > Professor in Media Studies
> > Department of Media and Communication
> > University of Oslo
> > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> >
> > Postboks 1093
> > Blindern 0317
> > Oslo, Norway
> > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > _______________________________________________
> > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
> > list
> > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers
> http://aoir.org
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> > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
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> >
>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
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