[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Agnese Sampietro
agsamp at gmail.com
Wed Apr 24 23:50:35 PDT 2019
Dear AoIR-L members,
Thank you for this interesting discussion.
One of the first mentions I found of the fragment of Plato’s Phaedrus in
connection with the emergence of technology was in an article written by
December (1993): https://www.december.com/john/papers/pscrc93.txt. He cites
not only Ong but also Havelock and McLuhan. All of them have described the
shift from the active, participatory world of orality to the linear,
static, world of writing. Maybe one of them was the first to mention Plato.
Baumann (1986, like Ong) in "The Written Word: Literacy in Transition",
also mentions Plato.
The reluctance - not to say criticism or panic - about new technology is a
recurrent phenomenon in the history of humanity. Bell wrote on Slate an
entertaining piece on this phenomenon for a general audience, which I
highly recommend
https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/a-history-of-media-technology-scares-from-the-printing-press-to-facebook.html
Let us know if you find out who opened the box!
Best,
---
Agnese Sampietro
Postdoctoral Research Fellow
Universitat Jaume I
Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences
Department of European Languages and Cultures
e-mail: sampietr at uji.es
Twitter: @speakabouttech <https://twitter.com/speakabouttech>
Website: https://sites.google.com/view/agnesesampietro
My latest paper: https://authors.elsevier.com/a/1Yh8D1L-nhBhG-
El mié., 24 abr. 2019 a las 23:26, Thomas Ball (<xtc283 at gmail.com>)
escribió:
> Definitely an interesting thread! The link between Plato and Ong is clear
> but it seems a bit of a stretch to describe Plato's ambivalence wrt writing
> as 'panic', moral, media or otherwise.
>
> The history of philosophy aside, another track worth pursuing is to search
> Google Ngram Viewer ( https://books.google.com/ngrams) between 1500-2008
> (the earliest and latest available years). Use the keywords 'moral panic'
> and 'media panic' as separate queries. The results are interesting and
> suggestive. For instance, 'moral panic' shows very low levels of incidence
> (there's a bump around 1750) until the mid-1960s when it takes off
> exponentially. The origins of this spike are probably related to Marshall
> McLuhan's use if the term “moral panic” as early as 1964 to describe the
> reactions of many “highly literate people” to the new “electric” media, as
> noted by Syvertsen in his 2017 book, *Media Resistance: Connecting the
> Dots*.
>
> Note that Ngrams is only searching digitized books and hasn't been updated
> for over a decade. At the bottom of the Ngram page are relevant citations
> broken out by time period.
>
> Another useful tool is to simply drop these same keywords into Google
> Search.
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 2:30 PM Aaron Hung <aaron.chiayuanhung at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You might also want to look into Eric Havelock's *Preface to Plato
> > <https://monoskop.org/images/0/0d/Havelock_Eric_A_Preface_to_Plato.pdf
> >*.
> > Ong draws on him a lot but I'm less familiar with it myself so I'm not
> sure
> > how that argument developed.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 2:26 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks in turn for the reference! And you, along with Mark Johns, may
> > > well be onto something here - somewhere between Ong and Postman at
> least
> > > some version of the mythos becomes familiar to folk ... and somewhere
> > > along the line it gets appropriated, if in a (necessarily) simplified
> > > version, into discourse on moral / media panics.
> > > But where / when / and by whom?
> > >
> > > Again, just curious - and concerned that I may be missing an important
> > > set of arguments somewhere.
> > >
> > > best,
> > > - c.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 24/04/2019 20:12, Aaron Hung wrote:
> > > > What a fascinating discussion! And coincidentally, I came across this
> > > > just last night when reading /Paper /by Mark Kurlansky.
> > > >
> > > > In terms of how this notion of moral panic has been attributed,
> fairly
> > > > or not and accurate or not, to Plato, I trace my own familiarity to
> > this
> > > > argument to my first introduction to Walter Ong, who wrote in
> /Orality
> > > > and Literacy
> > > > <
> > >
> http://dss-edit.com/prof-anon/sound/library/Ong_orality_and_literacy.pdf
> > >:
> > >
> > > > "/Writing, Plato has Socrates say in the /Phaedrus/, is inhuman,
> > > > pretending to establish outside the mind what in reality can be only
> in
> > > > the mind. It is a thing, a manufactured product. The same of course
> is
> > > > said of computers. Secondly, Plato’s Socrates urges, writing destroys
> > > > memory. Those who use writing will become forgetful, relying on an
> > > > external resource for what they lack in internal resources. Writing
> > > > weakens the mind. Today, parents and others fear that pocket
> > calculators
> > > > provide an external resource for what ought to be the internal
> resource
> > > > of memorized multiplication tables. Calculators weaken the mind,
> > relieve
> > > > it of the work that keeps it strong. Thirdly, a written text is
> > > > basically unresponsive. If you ask a person to explain his or her
> > > > statement, you can get an explanation; if you ask a text, you get
> back
> > > > nothing except the same, often stupid, words which called for your
> > > > question in the first place. In the modern critique of the computer,
> > the
> > > > same objection is put, ‘Garbage in, garbage out’. Fourthly, in
> keeping
> > > > with the agonistic mentality of oral cultures, Plato’s Socrates also
> > > > holds it against writing that the written word cannot defend itself
> as
> > > > the natural spoken word can: real speech and thought always exist
> > > > essentially in a context of give-and-take between real
> persons.Writing
> > > > is passive, out of it, in an unreal, unnatural world. So are
> > > > computers...." (p. 78).
> > > >
> > > > This juxtaposition between what Plato said about writing and how
> people
> > > > said/say about computers may have led to some of the comparisons
> > > > you mentioned.
> > > >
> > > > - Aaron Hung
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 1:56 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > > > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Thomas,
> > > >
> > > > thanks, and forgive me for being somewhat vague in this regard.
> > > > I'm reluctant to provide specific examples because my intent is
> not
> > > to
> > > > develop or direct a critique against specific authors /
> colleagues,
> > > or
> > > > even give the impression thereof. It is rather, as stated, a
> > genuine
> > > > concern that I've missed something somehow and am curious about
> the
> > > > history of the trope.
> > > >
> > > > So perhaps a generic description will do? An author/s seek to
> > build
> > > a
> > > > case that criticisms of a specific new media technology / use are
> > > > somehow off the mark or misleading as the these criticisms can
> > > > rather be
> > > > understood to fit the model of a media panic. E.g., Tindr and
> > other
> > > > hook-up apps are not necessarily the end of real romance and deep
> > > > relationships; these reactions are rather a media panic - one
> that
> > > > overlooks several positives uncovered by more careful / empirical
> > > > analysis.
> > > >
> > > > To be sure, such an account can be built - and, in my reading,
> > often
> > > so
> > > > - quite carefully and successfully.
> > > >
> > > > Often, these accounts (rightly) draw on Kirsten Drotner's
> Dangerous
> > > > Media? Panic Discourses and Dilemmas of Modernity, Paedagogica
> > > > Historica: International Journal of the History of Education,
> 35:3,
> > > > 593-619
> > > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/0030923990350303
> > > > To be explicit, Kirsten does _not_ invoke Plato or the Phaedrus,
> > but
> > > > rather begins her exquisite account with panics surrounding print
> > > > media.
> > > > In addition, building in part on the work of Stanley Cohen
> > (1972),
> > > > Kirsten develops a very helpful taxonomy of primary criteria of
> > such
> > > > panics.
> > > >
> > > > At least on occasion, however, as the argument continues, in
> > > > providing a
> > > > few examples of earlier moral / media panics to helpfully
> > illustrate
> > > > what these are, an author will further invoke the mythos of the
> > > > invention of writing in the Phaedrus as just such an example of a
> > > media
> > > > / moral panic. Doing so aims at establishing a (broad)
> conclusion
> > to
> > > > the effect that we always panic with the emergence of new media -
> > but
> > > > this is more or less absurd, i.e., look at Plato's critique of
> > > writing.
> > > > By the same token, critiques of new technology X (e.g., Tindr,
> but
> > > the
> > > > list is all but endless, of course) are (ridiculous) media /
> moral
> > > > panics and so critiques of new technology X can be easily
> > dismissed.
> > > >
> > > > (There's a second logical problem in at least some examples of
> this
> > > > argument - namely, the fallacy of affirming the consequent.
> > Roughly:
> > > > If you have a strong example of a moral / media panic --> (then)
> > you
> > > > will find X out of Y criteria (as listed by Drotner and/or
> others).
> > > > SO: if I find X out of Y criteria surrounding media coverage of
> new
> > > > technology x --> THEN I can conclude the criticisms included here
> > are
> > > > but instances of moral panic and, by implication, deserve no
> > further
> > > > attention.
> > > > This is a variation of the social science chestnut that
> correlation
> > > > does
> > > > not equal causation.)
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps give a better sense of the argument strand /
> > trope
> > > > I'm
> > > > curious about?
> > > >
> > > > Again, many thanks
> > > > - c.
> > > >
> > > > On 24/04/2019 18:50, Thomas Ball wrote:
> > > > > Dr Ess-
> > > > > This is a challenging query. One thing that might help
> > orient
> > > > > potential respondents would be for you to cite one or two
> > articles
> > > > > exemplifying "moral / media panics that
> > > > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of
> writing."
> > > > > As it is, we're left guessing what you have in mind.
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Thomas
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:37 PM Charles M. Ess
> > > > <c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > > > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear AoIRists,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my
> formal
> > > > academic
> > > > > training was in history of philosophy, German literature,
> > and
> > > > ancient
> > > > > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the
> > ears
> > > > with
> > > > > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems
> > in
> > > > this
> > > > > instance.
> > > > >
> > > > > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics
> that
> > > > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of
> > > writing.
> > > > >
> > > > > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for
> a
> > > long
> > > > > list of
> > > > > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with
> time
> > > and
> > > > > interest
> > > > > in looking them over.
> > > > >
> > > > > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when -
> > > > introduced what
> > > > > has apparently become received tradition in these domains
> > > > that the
> > > > > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the
> > > > Phaedrus is a
> > > > > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an
> > appreciative
> > > > inquiry.
> > > > > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding
> > > > how this
> > > > > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried
> that
> > I
> > > > may have
> > > > > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and
> > > > obvious for
> > > > > those of you with academic training more directly within
> > > > media and
> > > > > communication studies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and
> eludation!
> > > > > best,
> > > > > - charles ess
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: The short list includes:
> > > > > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the
> > > > context of
> > > > > the
> > > > > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the
> larger
> > > > context -
> > > > > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress
> > > > (perhaps seduce)
> > > > > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a
> > > > scroll and
> > > > > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works
> > much
> > > > more
> > > > > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically
> > > > speaking,
> > > > > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts
> at
> > > > > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of
> writing
> > > > per se.
> > > > > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too
> > > easily
> > > > > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a
> > > technical /
> > > > > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways
> > > directly
> > > > > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false
> > > story; a
> > > > > mythos
> > > > > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of
> > > distinctive
> > > > > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
> > > > > interlocutors,
> > > > > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to
> an
> > > > impass.
> > > > > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often
> > > > complementary, not
> > > > > contradictory.
> > > > > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple
> > > dialogues, of
> > > > > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance,
> to
> > > > sincerely
> > > > > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect
> > > technology.
> > > > > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the
> > > > consistent
> > > > > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful
> use
> > > > of mythos
> > > > > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral
> > > panic.
> > > > > And so on.
> > > > > Again: what am I missing?
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, many thanks,
> > > > > - c.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > > > University of Oslo
> > > > > <
> > > http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> > > > >
> > > > > Postboks 1093
> > > > > Blindern 0317
> > > > > Oslo, Norway
> > > > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > > University of Oslo
> > > > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html
> >
> > > >
> > > > Postboks 1093
> > > > Blindern 0317
> > > > Oslo, Norway
> > > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > University of Oslo
> > > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> > >
> > > Postboks 1093
> > > Blindern 0317
> > > Oslo, Norway
> > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > >
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