[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Thomas Ball
xtc283 at gmail.com
Sun Apr 28 07:35:43 PDT 2019
Charles-
Thanks for your followup question. My view is that there exists a strong
tradition among many historians of western civilization, particularly the
English, to truncate world history before the Greeks as being irrelevant.
Thus, in delineating the 'classic' period it is commonly posited as
beginning around 700 BCE with the pre-Socratics. In part, this is driven by
an academic's need to limit the boundaries of their research and
discussion. What complicates things is the extent to which we take
philosophy or history or science as transhistorical categories, and how
much we see those as ways of knowing constituted by discrete textual
traditions/reception traditions where there is a constant, relentless
return to Greek texts as the fountainhead.
FWIW,
Best regards,
Thomas
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 10:04 AM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
wrote:
> Again, many thanks on all fronts.
>
> Can you provide an example of historians who place the origins of
> writing to 700 BCE in Greece? This would likewise greatly puzzle me - I
> thought it was common knowledge that the Epic of Gilgamesh is likely
> from 2700 BCE, generally regarded as in-scribing oral traditions that go
> back earlier; hieroglyphics are likewise well before 700 BCE, etc.
>
> I'd have to go back to check - but my recollection is that these
> historical episodes / examples of writing are properly included in the
> theorists / historians familiar to me. But again, my great worry is
> that I've missed something (many things) more familiar and taken for
> granted among colleagues with more formal academic training in media and
> communication studies.
>
> If I ever turn any of this into a presentable paper, I'll let you and
> all the other contributors to this thread know - and certainly
> gratefully acknowledge all the insights and help.
>
> Again, many thanks and all best.
> - charles
>
> On 26/04/2019 16:32, Thomas Ball wrote:
> > Charles-
> > Based on the empirical information from Google Ngrams, it would
> > appear that modern notions of moral and media panic were initiated by
> > McLuhan in his 1964 book, /Understanding Media./ It's around or shortly
> > after that date that these keywords explode into exponential or even
> > superexponential growth. While Havelock's book was first published in
> > 1963, it's doubtful that it could have had such widespread dissemination
> > as to catalyze the observed growth rate in these keywords. Moreover,
> > Ong's book and theory was a much later contribution to an already extant
> > literature.
> > Regardless, it's useful to suggest that Plato's ambivalence about
> > writing in the /Phaedrus/ was a similarly late contribution. Those
> > historians who place the origins of writing to around 700 BC in Greece
> > are entirely missing the fact that there was an earlier, more than 3,000
> > year old cuneiform civilization in Sumeria. This places into question
> > any theories linking temporal shifts in orality, chirometry, cognition,
> > memory, brain function, etc., to pre-Socratic Greece. In other words,
> > why wouldn't there be a similar shift occurring millennia before the
> > Greeks? See Marc Van De Mieroop's book, /Philosophy Before the Greeks:
> > The Pursuit of Truth in Ancient Babylonia/, for confirmation of these
> facts.
> > Best regards,
> > Thomas
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 7:24 AM Ricardo Rohm <ricardorohm at gmail.com
> > <mailto:ricardorohm at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Charles and Air-lists,
> >
> > Congrats for this insightful discussion! Really.
> > This made me also think about one of the questions which concerns,
> > ultimately, "who opened the box first".
> > I do not know if this one might be the case, but in my life I have
> > sometimes faced some so-called scientific discourses which seemed to
> be
> > entitled with logical meaning, a valid argument or even deductively
> > achieved by a plettora of "practical examples or personal
> experiences".
> > Whatever.
> > I have also come accross conclusions from reflexions, surveys and
> > essays,
> > which have been used strategically for important purposes, decision
> > makings
> > by governments and corporatios. Many of which have lead humanity to
> > misery,
> > war, suffering, and oppression: yes oppression!
> >
> > Citing and refering to famous classical authors in the past ( and
> > still
> > nowadays) is an interesting habit which goes far beyond than a
> simpler
> > meaning of well- established methodological procedures or even
> research
> > designs. Beyond also a rhetoric concern or vanity. Indeed, and I
> > repeat, -
> > I do not know if the present case in the Air-l here discussed might
> be
> > considered in my refkexion! - I cannot avoid but keep wondering:
> >
> > To whom would it be useful and empowering to cast away important
> > critics on
> > new technologies, as well as, who "should" be spared of the
> > so-called "weak
> > and worthless critics", once someone or some organization (and if
> > science,.in general is considered, an Institution) decides that these
> > critics might be nothing but some kind of moral or psychological
> > disorder
> > or malfunction ?
> >
> > On the other hand - (and I might share mine with many 😉 ) - what
> might
> > motivate the curiosity towards "opening this box of Plato/Socrates"
> > in the
> > present moment?
> > Yes, because this is the time when privacy ans other "boxes and
> > caves seem
> > to be vanishing" , intentionally produced disinformation is
> compromising
> > democracy in many countries, and.so on and forth.
> >
> > In fact, I decided to share my own concerns here with you because,
> > maybe,
> > someone becomes intetested in producing some research or personal
> > discussions at some future phisical venue, strengthening memory and
> > bonds,
> > instead of "writing or computing".
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Ricardo Rohm
> > Federal University of Rio de Janeiro
> > (at) FAU - Erlangen- Nürnberg
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 18:37 Charles M. Ess, <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear AoIRists,
> > >
> > > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal
> academic
> > > training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and
> ancient
> > > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
> > > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
> > > instance.
> > >
> > > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
> > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
> > >
> > > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
> > list of
> > > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and
> > interest
> > > in looking them over.
> > >
> > > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when -
> > introduced what
> > > has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
> > > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the
> > Phaedrus is a
> > > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> > >
> > > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative
> > inquiry.
> > > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how
> this
> > > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may
> > have
> > > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and
> > obvious for
> > > those of you with academic training more directly within media and
> > > communication studies.
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
> > > best,
> > > - charles ess
> > >
> > > PS: The short list includes:
> > > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context
> > of the
> > > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger
> > context -
> > > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps
> > seduce)
> > > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
> > > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
> > > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically
> speaking,
> > > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
> > > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per
> se.
> > > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
> > > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
> > > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
> > > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
> > mythos
> > > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
> > > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
> > interlocutors,
> > > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an
> impass.
> > > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often
> > complementary, not
> > > contradictory.
> > > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
> > > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to
> sincerely
> > > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
> > > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the
> consistent
> > > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of
> > mythos
> > > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
> > > And so on.
> > > Again: what am I missing?
> > >
> > > Again, many thanks,
> > > - c.
> > > --
> > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > University of Oslo
> > > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> > >
> > > Postboks 1093
> > > Blindern 0317
> > > Oslo, Norway
> > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>
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