[Air-L] non-Zoom platforms....again

Sun Aug 2 07:37:26 PDT 2020

Hi,

Thanks for this precision! I was not aware of the WebRTC Insertable Stream spec.

I checked, and Mozilla is not yet working on the implementation, but they do prepare position on this standard proposition: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/330 <https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/330>.

So Google Chrome to escape Zoom dominance 😅? More seriously, we can expect than all platforms provide E2EE as soon as it becomes technically trivial.

Regards,

Simon Perdrisat

> On 2 Aug 2020, at 09:09, abram stern <aphid at ucsc.edu> wrote:
> 
> It is no longer true that group calls over webrtc can't be encrypted.  Jitsi announced support for it back in April, although it only works in recent versions of chrome (and other Blink-based browsers) and their electron app (not sure about mobile, Mozilla is apparently working on support for Insertable Streams for Firefox).  https://jitsi.org/blog/e2ee/ <https://jitsi.org/blog/e2ee/> ; I can't speak for how well it scales, but since this doesn't rely entirely on group p2p (since there is still a videobridge) it shouldn't be too bad.
> 
> Cheers,
> Aphid
> 
> 
> Anything based on WebRTC (such as jisty) will not be end-to-end encrypted for group calls. The current #WebRTC standard does not provide the technical capability to do end-to-end encryption on multi-channels. Also, WebRTC does not scale well yet. For example, multi-stream per connections is hard to implement https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/ <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/> <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/ <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/>> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:00 PM Simon <perdrisat at gmail.com <mailto:perdrisat at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> No articles, but there is some points to take into account.
> 
> If you want to do a meeting with fewer than 10 peoples that have access to good bandwidth, anything will work.
> 
> If you need more, there is no better alternative than Zoom (OK, Cisco WebEx, but it's more expensive, harder to deploy and Cisco has way more market dominance than Zoom).
> 
> It was already mentioned that the infrastructure is critical. Zoom has a massive infrastructure. They own a private network of servers around the world and can re-compress video streams on the fly depending on your device capabilities. So when you do a call between NYC and Berlin, data don’t go through the internet. You go to the closest Zoom server in NYC linked through their ultra-fast private network to a Zoom server in Berlin.
> 
> Anything based on WebRTC (such as jisty) will not be end-to-end encrypted for group calls. The current #WebRTC standard does not provide the technical capability to do end-to-end encryption on multi-channels. Also, WebRTC does not scale well yet. For example, multi-stream per connections is hard to implement https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/ <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/> <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/ <https://bloggeek.me/webrtc-rtcpeerconnection-one-per-stream/>> 
> 
> That rule out anything that works directly in the browser and also app such as Microsoft Team.
> 
> But Zoom also works in the browser? First Zoom is not end-to-end encrypted (not yet, certainly soon https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/17/21294355/zoom-security-end-to-end-encryptoin-beta-release-july-2020-new-feature <https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/17/21294355/zoom-security-end-to-end-encryptoin-beta-release-july-2020-new-feature> <https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/17/21294355/zoom-security-end-to-end-encryptoin-beta-release-july-2020-new-feature <https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/17/21294355/zoom-security-end-to-end-encryptoin-beta-release-july-2020-new-feature>> ) . But they do scale. To do that, they decompress on the server side video stream for WebRTC clients. You will also notice the quality is not that good when using Zoom in the browser instead of the app.
> 
> Also Zoom provide admin tools. So if you need to manage thousands of users with different access rights, Zoom will let you do that. It also provides good direct translation tools and have auto-transcript capabilities.
> 
> You also have the possibility to use the Zoom On-Premiss deployment. https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360034064852-Zoom-On-Premise-Deployment <https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360034064852-Zoom-On-Premise-Deployment> <https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360034064852-Zoom-On-Premise-Deployment <https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360034064852-Zoom-On-Premise-Deployment>> "The Zoom On-Premise deployments, allow organizations to deploy meeting connector virtual machines within their internal company network. In doing so, user and meeting metadata are still managed in the z om public cloud. However, all meeting traffic (video, voice, in-meeting chat, and data sharing) is hosted in the organization's private cloud"  
> 
> So use zoom and move on. If Zoom become an even more important compagnie, I believe this is a good thing. This will increase competition in the very small club of company that provide IT infrastructure to big organizations (Google/Microsoft/IBM/Cicso, …).
> 
> Say that, there is an interesting initiative that tries to be rock solid secure, open-source and decentralized such as https://jami.net/ <https://jami.net/> <https://jami.net/ <https://jami.net/>> . But it will not scale especially when people have low bandwidth.
> 
> Now if you have time and money to build up your own system… you may be able to build something for your organization scenario that works. But I believe there is a more important problem that will bring more value to users or friends and to the world. And for sure, it will work only in specific use cases as jitsy may also work for you.
> 
> (As a side note, I totally agree with https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/ <https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/> <https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/ <https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/>>. In no way do I think using Zoom is exam setting is appropriate. But the problems are the exams design, not Zoom. Fight for better exams where student can actually have full access to their computer and the internet.).
> 
> We have to ask why we need such scale? If you have +200 viewers it’s a broadcast. Teacher can record them in advance and upload them on youtube, it would be the same experience. In fact video are certainly not the best medium -> teacher can write 6 pages, it would be the same amount of information than a 2h lecture. Sessions of questions could be done then in small group on jitsy or other.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Simon Perdrisat
> 
> 
> 
> > On 30 Jul 2020, at 20:41, Kim Jaxon <kjaxon at csuchico.edu <mailto:kjaxon at csuchico.edu>> wrote:
> > 
> > Echoing the thank you for sharing this Zoom resource/critique Mehitabel.
> > 
> > Ushnish, I really appreciate this text from Shea Swagger, "Our Bodies Encoded," which explores and critiques proctoring software. Shea says what I want to say, only with fewer curse words than I sometimes use when talking to colleagues about surveillance software.
> > https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/ <https://hybridpedagogy.org/our-bodies-encoded-algorithmic-test-proctoring-in-higher-education/>
> > 
> > 
> > Best,
> > Kim
> > 
> > 
> > Kim Jaxon
> > 
> > Professor, English (Composition & Literacy)
> > 
> > Director, Northern California Writing Project<http://norcalwp.org/ncwp/ <http://norcalwp.org/ncwp/>>
> > 
> > CSU, Chico
> > 
> > kjaxon at csuchico.edu <mailto:kjaxon at csuchico.edu>
> > 
> > http://www.kimjaxon.com/ <http://www.kimjaxon.com/>
> > 
> > @drjaxon <https://twitter.com/drjaxon <https://twitter.com/drjaxon>>
> > 
> > Pronouns: she/her/hers
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org>> on behalf of Ushnish Sengupta <ushnish.sengupta at gmail.com <mailto:ushnish.sengupta at gmail.com>>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 11:21 AM
> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:air-l at listserv.aoir.org> <air-l at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:air-l at listserv.aoir.org>>
> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] non-Zoom platforms....again
> > 
> > Thank you for the excellent summary document on Zoom Mehitabel
> > 
> > I am also concerned about the racial inequity issues of automated online
> > proctoring systems, that are used in conjunction with videoconferencing
> > systems such as Zoom.
> > From what we know of bias in facial recognition and detection algorithms,
> > these systems that try to detect student faces changing direction
> > (potential cheating) during online exams have a significant number of
> > racial injustice issues.
> > 
> > Ushnish Sengupta
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 22:28:45 -0400
> > From: Mehitabel Glenhaber <glenhabe at usc.edu <mailto:glenhabe at usc.edu>>
> > To: alexandre.hocquet at univ-lorraine.fr <mailto:alexandre.hocquet at univ-lorraine.fr>
> > Cc: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] non-Zoom platforms....again
> > Message-ID:
> >        <CAMASph4WHCA1xi1xxpuDwR5A4nFKqoSioyvenLbcTdUJkVaXag at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAMASph4WHCA1xi1xxpuDwR5A4nFKqoSioyvenLbcTdUJkVaXag at mail.gmail.com>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > 
> > Hi Alexandre and everyone,
> > 
> > This is maybe a bit adjacent to your question, but I have also been
> > concerned watching Zoom rapidly gobble up a near-monopoly on remote
> > education in the United States. Here is an informal resource that I created
> > at the start of the pandemic, and recently updated, warning about the
> > dangers of Zoom becoming a monopoly, and advising educators about
> > alternatives, and how to minimize the harms of using Zoom in the classroom:
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o7Eq17jdWCtu2CaC15JBbdVU1p7fx2_jReH6qoFafMM/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o7Eq17jdWCtu2CaC15JBbdVU1p7fx2_jReH6qoFafMM/edit?usp=sharing>
> > I hope it's helpful to you in writing your article, and also generally to
> > folks on this list going into teaching remotely the next semester.
> > 
> > I think the situation in the US is very similar to the one you describe in
> > France (with the exception, perhaps, that there was less of an existing
> > open source infrastructure which Zoom replaced - though that's just my
> > impression)
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Mehitabel
> > 
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 7:41 PM Alexandre Hocquet <
> > alexandre.hocquet at univ-lorraine.fr <mailto:alexandre.hocquet at univ-lorraine.fr>> wrote:
> > 
> >> Dear AoIRers,
> >> 
> >> long time lurker, first time poster*. A recent inquiry to the list
> >> asking for non-Zoom platforms gave me the idea to ask advice here
> >> regarding a project for an opinion piece I have about the recent taking
> >> over of online conferencing by Zoom (and Microsoft Teams)  in Academia.
> >> 
> >> My point is that the Covid crisis has led (in France at least, and I'm
> >> willing to have the opinion about academics in other countries) to the
> >> complete outsourcing to those two corporate platforms for online
> >> teaching (and scholarly conferencing), which means
> >> 
> >> 1) the renouncement to a once functional dedicated national
> >> infrastructure (namely, in France, the use of free software Jitsi within
> >> the state-sponsored "Renater" academic infrastructure)
> >> 
> >> 2) the surrendering of Academia to corporations well known to abuse the
> >> extraction and commodification of data (Zoom) and well known to
> >> "embrace, extend and extinguish" anything within their reach (Microsoft)
> >> 
> >> My point is that it is completely contradictory to a supposed general
> >> institutional trend towards "open science", and that open software is
> >> often  forgotten besides open litterature and open data, and that the
> >> pandemic has accelerated the disintegration of an academic national and
> >> open infrastructure.
> >> 
> >> So my questions are :
> >> 
> >> 1) Is anybody aware of an already existing piece expressing that concerns
> > ?
> >> 
> >> 2) Is anybody willing to share what is the situation in their country
> >> regarding this issue ?
> >> 
> >> Best,
> >> 
> >> 
> >> * for a little background and as a newcomer presentation, I am a
> >> historian of science and my area is the issue of openness within
> >> scientific modelling software .
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > *Key Articles:*
> > 
> > The Future of Social Economy Leadership and Organizational Composition in
> > Canada: Demand from Demographics, and Difference through Diversity
> > <http://interventionseconomiques.revues.org/2794 <http://interventionseconomiques.revues.org/2794>>
> > 
> > Indigenous Cooperatives in Canada: The Complex Relationship Between
> > Cooperatives, Community Economic Development,Colonization, and Culture
> > <http://www.jeodonline.com/sites/jeodonline.com/files/articles/2015/08/13/6sengupta13aug2015.pdf <http://www.jeodonline.com/sites/jeodonline.com/files/articles/2015/08/13/6sengupta13aug2015.pdf>>
> > 
> > Indigenous Communities and Social Enterprise in Canada:Incorporating
> > Culture as an Essential Ingredient of Entrepreneurship
> > <http://anserj.ca/anser/index.php/cjnser/article/view/196 <http://anserj.ca/anser/index.php/cjnser/article/view/196>>
> > _______________________________________________
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> -- 
> Abram Stern (aphid)
> PhD Candidate, Film and Digital Media
> University of California, Santa Cruz
> aphid at ucsc.edu <mailto:aphid at ucsc.edu> // a at aphid.org <mailto:a at aphid.org> ⚛ // (831) 224-0334 <tel:2883129202240334> (mobile/signal)