[Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India

Fri Mar 24 08:27:19 PST 2006

But Rajen,

*** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect 
example of the REAL Hinduism's goodness?

Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million exception to the rule.

In fact I will add one more fine example: 
President Kalam was adopted by Tamil 
Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be! Will 
you take issue with that too?

*** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here. 
Again it is them bad guys who would not allow, 
even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to enter a 
temple, no doubt guarded against invasion by 
untouchables by people with hearts as pure as 
those of the newborn--Brahmin priests.

*** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly 
nasty ilk of politicians! Take a wild guess on 
WHO they are!

Very, very skeptically yours,

c :-)

At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>Himenda:
>I am yet to find a Hindu scholar who would say 
>that Caste was hereditary in past. Everybody, 
>starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to 
>defend the position that the caste system was 
>actually NOT hereditary in the past citing 
>examples like you did.
>
>But till now nobody could convince me that it 
>was NOT hereditary. Frankly speaking I can see 
>the holes in the very examples you cited. I 
>think all the Hindu scholars will call me a dumb 
>guy, but I always ask the following dumb 
>question to the defenders of the case to prove 
>that the caste system was NOT hereditary in the 
>past:
>
>Question:
>If caste system was NOT hereditary at some point 
>in the past, then there must have been a system 
>in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the 
>caste system so that it does not become 
>hereditary. A system like say at the age of (5, 
>10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to 
>a test (like the Mandarins in China) where they 
>are tested and someone is declaring "OK, you 
>become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.'   If 
>you think carefully, without such a Mandarin 
>system in vogue, caste system will have to be 
>hereditary.
>
>Now out of the million written words, stories, 
>upakhyans in so many Hindu Kabya, Mahalkbaya, 
>Purans etc can anyone can show me one single 
>incident which will indicate that such a system 
>ever existed in India.
>
>So far nobody could show me. But there may be 
>such instances. But as I told you I am a dumb 
>guy. Show me where is the beef.
>
>I think we should accept whatever it was in the 
>past and move on. But we should not try to 
>defend something which is not true.
>
>But I amy be wrong. I would like to see someone proving that I am wrong.
>
>That will be an enlightenment.
>Rajen Barua
>
>
>From: <mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>Himendra Thakur
>
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Barua25 ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani ; 
><mailto:umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu>umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu
>Cc: 
><mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>hthakur at comcast.net 
>; <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02 PM
>Subject: Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>Dear Rajen, Ram and Umesh,
>
>
>
>As regards hereditary caste system, please consider the frollowing few points:
>
>
>
>Out of many verses of Rikveda, the famous 
>twelfth verse of the Purusha Sukta of Rikveda 
>sounds non-typical:  
>
>brahmana asya mukham asit bahu rajanyakah kritah
>
>ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah padbhyam sudrah ajayata
>
>
>
>brahmin became his mouth, kshatriya (became 
>his) arms, vaishya (became his) thighs, sudra 
>was born from the feet  

>
>
>
>The distinctive use of the words became (asit) 
>and born (ajayata) indicates that this verse 
>is not typical of most of the allegorical 
>descriptions in Rik Veda verses. Some scholars 
>[I am still seeking the reference] opine that 
>this verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time 
>by interested parties. On the other hand, the 
>creation of the castes is described in a 
>different way in Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11) 
>or Taittiriya Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the 
>sudra caste is not mentioned at all.
>
>
>
>More accurately, at another place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
>
> 
 job of all persons cannot be  the same. A 
>carpenter straightens wood, a physician looks 
>after a patient, and a singer seeks the priest. 
>Look at me !  I am a hymn-writer, my son is a 
>physician, and my daughter is a cook 

>
>
>
>Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear (4/13) that the 
>four castes were created according to guna and 
>karma (aptitude and job) 
 definitely not 
>according to birth. The verses 41-44 in chapter 
>18 are description of the different natural 
>aptitudes of different people, not a 
>justification of the hereditary caste system. 
>
>
>
>A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of 
>Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as 
>pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all 
>newborn babies are Brahmin. This is supported by 
>the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti Parva Chapter 
>188):
>
>na visheshah asti varnanam sarvam bhahmam idam jagat
>
>brahmana purvasristam hi karmabhih varnatam gatam
>
>
>
>There is nothing so special about the 
>hereditary castes. At the beginning, everyone is 
>a Brahmin.  Castes come up later according to 
>job.
>
>
>
>One thousand years before Mahabharata and 
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the 
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an 
>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted 
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the 
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. 
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth 
>Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
>
>
>
>GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY CASTE SYSTEM TODAY: 
>
>In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus 
>in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of 
>hereditary caste system. It is very important to 
>study the cause.
>
>
>
>The causes of hereditary caste system appear to 
>be the same as those of racialism all over the 
>world.
>
>
>
>In modern India, democracy is ruined by 
>caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the 
>political parties. Unimaginable violence and 
>cruelty are committed in the name of caste. 
>Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in many 
>cases, flourishes in the system of arranged 
>marriage, which is a direct consequence of 
>hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>I think Inter-caste marriage, based on love and 
>commitment between the couples, will eliminate 
>the twin-headed monster of hereditary caste 
>system and dowry system in India.
>
>
>
>With the best wishes,
>
>Himendra
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06 AM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>Rajen-da,
>
>Even this verse by itself doesnot say that 
>Brahmin is by birth - it merely states that 
>Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or brain) 
>- thus does show that intellect is superior to 
>other things - if you believe that one part of 
>human body is more important than others. 
>Kshatriya is said to come from arms - denoting 
>strength -used for fighting -does not say about 
>hereditary caste system.
>
>On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the 
>sense that all people in any soicety are doing 
>equally important work - just as parts of a 
>human body - regardless of their social status. 
>I repeat - no mention of hereditary caste system.
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I think it is the Gita.
>I will check
>Rajenda
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>I do recall that there is such a verse but I do 
>not recall seeing it in Geeta or that Krishna 
>said it.
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <<mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I will have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states bothways:
>
>Those who are born out of my head are the Brahmins
>Those who are born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
>Those who are born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
>Those who are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
>
>Can you check if above is true.
>
>Rajenda
>
>
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