[Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Fri Mar 24 09:01:25 PST 2006
>> >One thousand years before Mahabharata and
>>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
>>wonderful story of Satyakama where an
>>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted
>>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
>>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad.
>>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth
>>Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
>>
*** No I don't think that is what I read Rajen.
If the anecdote is accurate ( forgive the
oxymoron nature of the point ) , then the 'slave
woman' --who not a Brahmin, gave birth to the
illegitimate Satyakam, who was accepted as a
Brahmin.
But you are right that it does not tell anyone
WHY Satykam was accepted as a Brahmin. Perhaps
because the man who sired him was a Brahmin?
Certainly not on his own merit, which became
known only much later, when he became the
principal hymn-writer. Which of course vindicated
those who accepted him as a Brahmin to begin
with. The anecdote was recorded probably for the
vindication of those who committed the
transgression ( more than likely wayward Brahmin
supporters of the wild-oats sowing father) of
accepting Satyakam as a Brhmin, in spite of being
born of a 'slave',
>In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus
>in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of
>hereditary caste system. It is very important to
>study the cause.
>The causes of hereditary caste system appear to
be the same as those of racialism all over the
world.
*** No wonder therefore, the hereditary
caste-system is at par with all of them who did
and still do practise racism!
What is your problem Rajen :-)?
At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
><One thousand years before Mahabharata and
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an
>illegitimate son of a slave woman >was accepted
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad.
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth
>Sky is Love >yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
>
>Funny thing is do you know what is the fallacy even of this one example.
>The fallacy is the SON is accepted as a BRAHMIN
>because HIS MOTHER, a slave woman, MUST BE A
>BRAHMIN BECAUSE SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.
>The son was not accepted as a Brahmin because of
>his own merit, but because of his mother's merit.
>So this prove that a BRAHMIN'S SON IS A BRAHMIN.
>That is the hole I was talking about.
>I wonder why Hindu scholars donot see this hole in the example?
>Again, let someone prove me dumb and wrong.
>Rajen
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>Chan Mahanta
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27 AM
>Subject: Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>But Rajen,
>
><One thousand years before Mahabharata and
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an
>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad.
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth
>Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
>
>*** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect
>example of the REAL Hinduism's goodness?
>
>Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million exception to the rule.
>
>In fact I will add one more fine example:
>President Kalam was adopted by Tamil
>Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be!
>Will you take issue with that too?
>
>
><A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of
>Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as
>pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all
>newborn babies are Brahmin.>
>
>
>*** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here.
>Again it is them bad guys who would not allow,
>even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to enter a
>temple, no doubt guarded against invasion by
>untouchables by people with hearts as pure as
>those of the newborn--Brahmin priests.
>
>
><In modern India, democracy is ruined by
>caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the
>political parties. >
>
>*** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly
>nasty ilk of politicians! Take a wild guess on
>WHO they are!
>
>
>Very, very skeptically yours,
>
>c :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>
>>Himenda:
>>
>I am yet to find a Hindu scholar who would say
>that Caste was hereditary in past. Everybody,
>starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to
>defend the position that the caste system was
>actually NOT hereditary in the past citing
>examples like you did.
>
>
>
>But till now nobody could convince me that it
>was NOT hereditary. Frankly speaking I can see
>the holes in the very examples you cited. I
>think all the Hindu scholars will call me a dumb
>guy, but I always ask the following dumb
>question to the defenders of the case to prove
>that the caste system was NOT hereditary in the
>past:
>
>
>
>Question:
>
>If caste system was NOT hereditary at some point
>in the past, then there must have been a system
>in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the
>caste system so that it does not become
>hereditary. A system like say at the age of (5,
>10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to
>a test (like the Mandarins in China) where they
>are tested and someone is declaring "OK, you
>become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.' If
>you think carefully, without such a Mandarin
>system in vogue, caste system will have to be
>hereditary.
>
>
>
>Now out of the million written words, stories,
>upakhyans in so many Hindu Kabya, Mahalkbaya,
>Purans etc can anyone can show me one single
>incident which will indicate that such a system
>ever existed in India.
>
>
>
>So far nobody could show me. But there may be
>such instances. But as I told you I am a dumb
>guy. Show me where is the beef.
>
>
>
>I think we should accept whatever it was in the
>past and move on. But we should not try to
>defend something which is not true.
>
>
>
>But I amy be wrong. I would like to see someone proving that I am wrong.
>
>
>
>That will be an enlightenment.
>
>Rajen Barua
>
>
>
>
>
>From: <mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>Himendra Thakur
>
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Barua25 ;
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani ;
><mailto:umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu>umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu
>
>Cc:
><mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>hthakur at comcast.net
>; <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02 PM
>
>Subject: Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>
>Dear Rajen, Ram and Umesh,
>
>
>
>
>As regards hereditary caste system, please consider the frollowing few points:
>
>
>
>
>Out of many verses of Rikveda, the famous
>twelfth verse of the Purusha Sukta of Rikveda
>sounds non-typical:
>
>brahmana asya mukham asit bahu rajanyakah kritah
>
>ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah padbhyam sudrah ajayata
>
>
>
>
>brahmin became his mouth, kshatriya (became
>his) arms, vaishya (became his) thighs, sudra
>was born from the feet
>
>
>
>
>
>The distinctive use of the words became (asit)
>and born (ajayata) indicates that this verse
>is not typical of most of the allegorical
>descriptions in Rik Veda verses. Some scholars
>[I am still seeking the reference] opine that
>this verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time
>by interested parties. On the other hand, the
>creation of the castes is described in a
>different way in Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11)
>or Taittiriya Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the
>sudra caste is not mentioned at all.
>
>
>
>
>More accurately, at another place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
>
>
job of all persons cannot be the same. A
>carpenter straightens wood, a physician looks
>after a patient, and a singer seeks the priest.
>Look at me ! I am a hymn-writer, my son is a
>physician, and my daughter is a cook
>
>
>
>
>Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear (4/13) that the
>four castes were created according to guna and
>karma (aptitude and job)
definitely not
>according to birth. The verses 41-44 in chapter
>18 are description of the different natural
>aptitudes of different people, not a
>justification of the hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>
>A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of
>Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as
>pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all
>newborn babies are Brahmin. This is supported by
>the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti Parva Chapter
>188):
>
>na visheshah asti varnanam sarvam bhahmam idam jagat
>
>brahmana purvasristam hi karmabhih varnatam gatam
>
>
>
>
>There is nothing so special about the
>hereditary castes. At the beginning, everyone is
>a Brahmin. Castes come up later according to
>job.
>
>
>
>
>One thousand years before Mahabharata and
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an
>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad.
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth
>Sky is Love yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
>
>
>
>
>GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY CASTE SYSTEM TODAY:
>
>In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus
>in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of
>hereditary caste system. It is very important to
>study the cause.
>
>
>
>
>The causes of hereditary caste system appear to
>be the same as those of racialism all over the
>world.
>
>
>
>
>In modern India, democracy is ruined by
>caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the
>political parties. Unimaginable violence and
>cruelty are committed in the name of caste.
>Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in many
>cases, flourishes in the system of arranged
>marriage, which is a direct consequence of
>hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>
>I think Inter-caste marriage, based on love and
>commitment between the couples, will eliminate
>the twin-headed monster of hereditary caste
>system and dowry system in India.
>
>
>
>
>With the best wishes,
>
>Himendra
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ;
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani
>
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
>Rajen-da,
>
>
>
>Even this verse by itself doesnot say that
>Brahmin is by birth - it merely states that
>Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or brain)
>- thus does show that intellect is superior to
>other things - if you believe that one part of
>human body is more important than others.
>Kshatriya is said to come from arms - denoting
>strength -used for fighting -does not say about
>hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the
>sense that all people in any soicety are doing
>equally important work - just as parts of a
>human body - regardless of their social status.
>I repeat - no mention of hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I think it is the Gita.
>
>I will check
>
>Rajenda
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ;
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com>Ram Sarangapani
>
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
>I do recall that there is such a verse but I do
>not recall seeing it in Geeta or that Krishna
>said it.
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <<mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I will have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states bothways:
>
>
>
>Those who are born out of my head are the Brahmins
>
>Those who are born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
>
>Those who are born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
>
>Those who are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
>
>
>
>Can you check if above is true.
>
>
>
>Rajenda
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>assam at assamnet.org
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