[Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India

[Chan Mahanta]

OooH! Touched a raw nerve or what :-)?

But it was NOT a Bamun-bashing festival. The 
shoes should are for ALL those to wear on whom 
they fit.

It is about the  absence of the ABILITY of 
REFORMS, the ability that is touted to be the 
strong point of Hinduism ( unlike those others 
who are unable to reform and evolve no doubt).











At 11:23 AM -0600 3/24/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>  >*** No wonder therefore, the hereditary 
>caste-system is at par with all of them
>  >who did and still do practise racism!
>
>Hope you all don't mind my butting in.
>What have these crafty Brahmins done now?
>This thing about heredity is NOT confined just to Brahmins, is it?
>
>Lets look:
>
>Assamese don't (normally) marry outside their 
>language. Heck they don't even marry other 
>Assamese known as Kukis, Ahoms or Koch, Boros - 
>exceptions don't prove the rule.
>Most Assamese don't marry below their caste (and 
>we are not talking about Brahmins only here)
>And this phenomenon is NOT just confined to 
>Assamese. Its done and redone all over India 
>(including our educated NRAs and other NRIs).
>
>So, what does all this point out? Every damn 
>thing is hereditary. If you are born Bengali, 
>you confine yourself to marring another Bengali. 
>If you born a Kalita (or a Mahanta) its unlikely 
>they will marry below their caste or language.
>
>Exceptions aside, we are all 'guilty' of being 
>extensions of traditions and heredity. Why are 
>we singling out only the Brahmins here?
>How many of us (on this net) can claim NOT to be 
>tied down by extensions of traditions or 
>heredity? Once again netters see this thinly 
>veiled garb, holier than thou rear its head.
>
>--Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 3/24/06, Chan Mahanta 
><<mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>cmahanta at charter.net> 
>wrote:
>
>>>  >One thousand years before Mahabharata and 
>>>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the 
>>>wonderful story of Satyakama where an 
>>>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted 
>>>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the 
>>>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. 
>>>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth 
>>>"Sky is Love" yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>*** No I don't think that is what I read Rajen. 
>If the anecdote is accurate ( forgive the 
>oxymoron nature of the point ) , then the 'slave 
>woman' --who not a Brahmin, gave birth to the 
>illegitimate Satyakam, who was accepted as a 
>Brahmin.
>
>
>But you are right that it does not tell anyone 
>WHY Satykam was accepted as a Brahmin. Perhaps 
>because the man who sired him was a Brahmin? 
>Certainly not on his own merit, which became 
>known only much later, when he became the 
>principal hymn-writer. Which of course 
>vindicated those who accepted him as a Brahmin 
>to begin with. The anecdote was recorded 
>probably for the vindication of those who 
>committed the transgression ( more than likely 
>wayward Brahmin supporters of the wild-oats 
>sowing father) of accepting Satyakam as a 
>Brhmin, in spite of being born of a 'slave',
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  >In spite of all scriptural clarification, 
>Hindus in India cannot get rid of the immovable 
>yoke of hereditary caste system. It is very 
>important to study the cause.
>
>
>  >The causes of hereditary caste system appear 
>to be the same as those of racialism all over 
>the world.
>
>
>*** No wonder therefore, the hereditary 
>caste-system is at par with all of them who did 
>and still do practise racism!
>
>
>What is your problem Rajen :-)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>
>><One thousand years before Mahabharata and 
>>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the 
>>wonderful story of Satyakama where an 
>>illegitimate son of a slave woman >was accepted 
>>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the 
>>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. 
>>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth 
>>"Sky is Love" >yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
>>
>
>
>Funny thing is do you know what is the fallacy even of this one example.
>
>The fallacy is the SON is accepted as a BRAHMIN 
>because HIS MOTHER, a slave woman,  MUST BE A 
>BRAHMIN BECAUSE SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.
>
>The son was not accepted as a Brahmin because of 
>his own merit, but because of his mother's merit.
>
>So this prove that a BRAHMIN'S  SON IS A BRAHMIN.
>
>That is the hole I was talking about.
>
>I wonder why Hindu scholars donot see this hole in the example?
>
>Again, let someone prove me dumb and wrong.
>
>Rajen
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: <mailto:cmahanta at charter.net>Chan Mahanta
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua
>
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>
>But Rajen,
>
>
><One thousand years before Mahabharata and 
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the 
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an 
>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted 
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the 
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. 
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth 
>"Sky is Love" yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.>
>
>
>*** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect 
>example of the REAL Hinduism's goodness?
>
>
>Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million exception to the rule.
>
>
>In fact I will add one more fine example: 
>President Kalam was adopted by Tamil 
>Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be! 
>Will you take issue with that too?
>
>
>
><A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of 
>Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as 
>pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all 
>newborn babies are Brahmin.>
>
>
>
>*** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here. 
>Again it is them bad guys who would not allow, 
>even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to enter a 
>temple, no doubt guarded against invasion by 
>untouchables by people with hearts as pure as 
>those of the newborn--Brahmin priests.
>
>
>
><In modern India, democracy is ruined by 
>caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the 
>political parties. >
>
>
>*** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly 
>nasty ilk of politicians! Take a wild guess on 
>WHO they are!
>
>
>
>Very, very skeptically yours,
>
>
>c :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>
>>Himenda:
>>
>I am yet to find a Hindu scholar who would say 
>that Caste was hereditary in past. Everybody, 
>starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to 
>defend the position that the caste system was 
>actually NOT hereditary in the past citing 
>examples like you did.
>
>
>
>But till now nobody could convince me that it 
>was NOT hereditary. Frankly speaking I can see 
>the holes in the very examples you cited. I 
>think all the Hindu scholars will call me a dumb 
>guy, but I always ask the following dumb 
>question to the defenders of the case to prove 
>that the caste system was NOT hereditary in the 
>past:
>
>
>
>Question:
>
>If caste system was NOT hereditary at some point 
>in the past, then there must have been a system 
>in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the 
>caste system so that it does not become 
>hereditary. A system like say at the age of (5, 
>10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to 
>a test (like the Mandarins in China) where they 
>are tested and someone is declaring "OK, you 
>become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.'   If 
>you think carefully, without such a Mandarin 
>system in vogue, caste system will have to be 
>hereditary.
>
>
>
>Now out of the million written words, stories, 
>upakhyans in so many Hindu Kabya, Mahalkbaya, 
>Purans etc can anyone can show me one single 
>incident which will indicate that such a system 
>ever existed in India.
>
>
>
>So far nobody could show me. But there may be 
>such instances. But as I told you I am a dumb 
>guy. Show me where is the beef.
>
>
>
>I think we should accept whatever it was in the 
>past and move on. But we should not try to 
>defend something which is not true.
>
>
>
>But I amy be wrong. I would like to see someone proving that I am wrong.
>
>
>
>That will be an enlightenment.
>
>Rajen Barua
>
>
>
>
>
>From: <mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>Himendra Thakur
>
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Barua25 ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com> Ram Sarangapani ; 
><mailto:umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu>umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu
>
>Cc: 
><mailto:hthakur at comcast.net>hthakur at comcast.net 
>; <mailto:assam at assamnet.org> assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02 PM
>
>Subject: Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>
>Dear Rajen, Ram and Umesh,
>
>
>
>
>As regards hereditary caste system, please consider the frollowing few points:
>
>
>
>
>Out of many verses of Rikveda, the famous 
>twelfth verse of the Purusha Sukta of Rikveda 
>sounds non-typical:  
>
>brahmana asya mukham asit bahu rajanyakah kritah
>
>ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah padbhyam sudrah ajayata
>
>
>
>
>"brahmin became his mouth, kshatriya (became 
>his) arms, vaishya (became his) thighs, sudra 
>was born from the feet"  Š
>
>
>
>
>
>The distinctive use of the words "became" (asit) 
>and "born" (ajayata) indicates that this verse 
>is not typical of most of the allegorical 
>descriptions in Rik Veda verses. Some scholars 
>[I am still seeking the reference] opine that 
>this verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time 
>by interested parties. On the other hand, the 
>creation of the castes is described in a 
>different way in Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11) 
>or Taittiriya Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the 
>sudra caste is not mentioned at all.
>
>
>
>
>More accurately, at another place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
>
>" Š job of all persons cannot be  the same. A 
>carpenter straightens wood, a physician looks 
>after a patient, and a singer seeks the priest. 
>Look at me !  I am a hymn-writer, my son is a 
>physician, and my daughter is a cook Š"
>
>
>
>
>Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear (4/13) that the 
>four castes were created according to guna and 
>karma (aptitude and job) Š definitely not 
>according to birth. The verses 41-44 in chapter 
>18 are description of the different natural 
>aptitudes of different people, not a 
>justification of the hereditary caste system. 
>
>
>
>
>A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of 
>Hindus, is defined as a person with a heart as 
>pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all 
>newborn babies are Brahmin. This is supported by 
>the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti Parva Chapter 
>188):
>
>
>na visheshah asti varnanam sarvam bhahmam idam jagat
>
>brahmana purvasristam hi karmabhih varnatam gatam
>
>
>
>
>"There is nothing so special about the 
>hereditary castes. At the beginning, everyone is 
>a Brahmin.  Castes come up later according to 
>job."
>
>
>
>
>One thousand years before Mahabharata and 
>Bhagavadgita, Chandogya Upanishad carried the 
>wonderful story of Satyakama where an 
>illegitimate son of a slave woman was accepted 
>as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the 
>principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. 
>His disciple, Upakoshal, saw the famous truth 
>"Sky is Love" yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.
>
>
>
>
>GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY CASTE SYSTEM TODAY: 
>
>In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus 
>in India cannot get rid of the immovable yoke of 
>hereditary caste system. It is very important to 
>study the cause.
>
>
>
>
>The causes of hereditary caste system appear to 
>be the same as those of racialism all over the 
>world.
>
>
>
>
>In modern India, democracy is ruined by 
>caste-oriented vote-banks practiced by the 
>political parties. Unimaginable violence and 
>cruelty are committed in the name of caste. 
>Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in many 
>cases, flourishes in the system of arranged 
>marriage, which is a direct consequence of 
>hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>
>I think Inter-caste marriage, based on love and 
>commitment between the couples, will eliminate 
>the twin-headed monster of hereditary caste 
>system and dowry system in India.
>
>
>
>
>With the best wishes,
>
>Himendra
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com> Ram Sarangapani
>
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
>Rajen-da,
>
>
>
>Even this verse by itself doesnot say that 
>Brahmin is by birth - it merely states that 
>Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or brain) 
>- thus does show that intellect is superior to 
>other things - if you believe that one part of 
>human body is more important than others. 
>Kshatriya is said to come from arms - denoting 
>strength -used for fighting -does not say about 
>hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the 
>sense that all people in any soicety are doing 
>equally important work - just as parts of a 
>human body - regardless of their social status. 
>I repeat - no mention of hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <<mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I think it is the Gita.
>
>I will check
>
>Rajenda
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: <mailto:jaipurschool at yahoo.com>umesh sharma
>
>To: <mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>Rajen Barua ; 
><mailto:assamrs at gmail.com> Ram Sarangapani
>
>Cc: <mailto:assam at assamnet.org>assam at assamnet.org
>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
>I do recall that there is such a verse but I do 
>not recall seeing it in Geeta or that Krishna 
>said it.
>
>
>
>Umesh
>
>Rajen Barua <<mailto:barua25 at hotmail.com>barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I will have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states bothways:
>
>
>
>Those who are born out of my head are the Brahmins
>
>Those who are born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
>
>Those who are born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
>
>Those who are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
>
>
>
>Can you check if above is true.
>
>
>
>Rajenda
>
>
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