[Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India

Fri Mar 24 10:55:22 PST 2006

>But it was NOT a Bamun-bashing festival

Hehehe. And I thought it was open season on the Bamuns again. Was a little
surprised that it came around earlier this year. Usually its around
June/July - when its really warm, and some men tend to lose their reasoning
capabilities :)

>It is about the  absence of the ABILITY of REFORMS

There are reforms. But you won't find these re-written versions of the Gita
or the Vedas. Whats written is written. If you are sincere, you will see
most practicing Hindus are very tolerant and reformed in the way they look
at things and ignore many of the practices/interpretations that today's
society thinks is bad.

Unlike some other religions, the religious texts of Hindus don't change to
suit the times. But that does not mean that Hindus in general follow
whatever is written (good or bad).

--Ram

On 3/24/06, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>  OooH! Touched a raw nerve or what :-)?
>
>
> But it was NOT a Bamun-bashing festival. The shoes should are for ALL
> those to wear on whom they fit.
>
>
> It is about the  absence of the ABILITY of REFORMS, the ability that is
> touted to be the strong point of Hinduism ( unlike those others who are
> unable to reform and evolve no doubt).
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> At 11:23 AM -0600 3/24/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> >*** No wonder therefore, the hereditary caste-system is at par with all
> of them
>
> >who did and still do practise racism!
>
>
>
> Hope you all don't mind my butting in.
>
> What have these crafty Brahmins done now?
>
> This thing about heredity is NOT confined just to Brahmins, is it?
>
>
>
> Lets look:
>
>
>
> Assamese don't (normally) marry outside their language. Heck they don't
> even marry other Assamese known as Kukis, Ahoms or Koch, Boros - exceptions
> don't prove the rule.
>
> Most Assamese don't marry below their caste (and we are not talking about
> Brahmins only here)
>
> And this phenomenon is NOT just confined to Assamese. Its done and redone
> all over India (including our educated NRAs and other NRIs).
>
>
>
> So, what does all this point out? Every damn thing is hereditary. If you
> are born Bengali, you confine yourself to marring another Bengali. If you
> born a Kalita (or a Mahanta) its unlikely they will marry below their caste
> or language.
>
>
>
> Exceptions aside, we are all 'guilty' of being extensions of traditions
> and heredity. Why are we singling out only the Brahmins here?
>
> How many of us (on this net) can claim NOT to be tied down by extensions
> of traditions or heredity? Once again netters see this thinly veiled garb,
> holier than thou rear its head.
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
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> On 3/24/06,* Chan Mahanta* <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>   >One thousand years before Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya
> Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son
> of a slave woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
> principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw
> the famous truth "Sky is Love"* yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** No I don't think that is what I read Rajen. If the anecdote is
> accurate ( forgive the oxymoron nature of the point ) , then the 'slave
> woman' --who not a Brahmin, gave birth to the illegitimate Satyakam, who was
> accepted as a Brahmin.
>
>
>
>
> But you are right that it does not tell anyone WHY Satykam was accepted as
> a Brahmin. Perhaps because the man who sired him was a Brahmin? Certainly
> not on his own merit, which became known only much later, when he became the
> principal hymn-writer. Which of course vindicated those who accepted him as
> a Brahmin to begin with. The anecdote was recorded probably for the
> vindication of those who committed the transgression ( more than likely
> wayward Brahmin supporters of the wild-oats sowing father) of accepting
> Satyakam as a Brhmin, in spite of being born of a 'slave',
>
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> >In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus in India cannot get rid
> of the immovable yoke of hereditary caste system. It is very important to
> study the cause.
>
>
>
>
>  >The causes of hereditary caste system appear to be the same as those of
> racialism all over the world.
>
>
>
>
> *** No wonder therefore, the hereditary caste-system is at par with all of
> them who did and still do practise racism!
>
>
>
>
> What is your problem Rajen :-)?
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> At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>
> <One thousand years before Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya
> Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son
> of a slave woman >was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
> principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw
> the famous truth "Sky is Love"* >yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.*>
>
>
>
> Funny thing is do you know what is the fallacy even of this one example.
>
> The fallacy is the SON is accepted as a BRAHMIN because HIS MOTHER, a
> slave woman,  MUST BE A BRAHMIN BECAUSE SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.
>
>
> The son was not accepted as a Brahmin because of his own merit, but
> because of his mother's merit.
>
> So this prove that a BRAHMIN'S  SON IS A BRAHMIN.
>
> That is the hole I was talking about.
>
> I wonder why Hindu scholars donot see this hole in the example?
>
> Again, let someone prove me dumb and wrong.
>
> Rajen
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>
>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com>
>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>
> But Rajen,
>
>
> <One thousand years before Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya
> Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son
> of a slave woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
> principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw
> the famous truth "Sky is Love"* yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.*>
>
>
> *** Don't you get it? Isn't that a perfect example of the REAL Hinduism's
> goodness?
>
>
> Now don't go about arguing that it is one in a million exception to the
> rule.
>
>
> In fact I will add one more fine example: President Kalam was adopted by
> Tamil Brahmins--and look what he turned out to be! Will you take issue with
> that too?
>
>
>
> <A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of Hindus, is defined as a
> person with a heart as pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all newborn
> babies are Brahmin.>
>
>
>
> *** See, another awesome bit of reasoning here. Again it is them bad guys
> who would not allow, even the BRAHMIN newborn of a Dalit to enter a temple,
> no doubt guarded against invasion by untouchables by people with hearts as
> pure as those of the newborn--Brahmin priests.
>
>
>
> <In modern India, democracy is ruined by caste-oriented vote-banks
> practiced by the political parties. >
>
>
> *** And mind you, these are of a PARTICULARly nasty ilk of politicians!
> Take a wild guess on WHO they are!
>
>
>
> Very, very skeptically yours,
>
>
> c :-)
>
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> At 9:28 AM -0600 3/24/06, Rajen Barua wrote:
>
> Himenda:
>
>   I am yet to find a Hindu scholar who would say that Caste was hereditary
> in past. Everybody, starting from Radhaksrishnan and all, try to defend the
> position that the caste system was actually NOT hereditary in the past
> citing examples like you did.
>
>
>
> But till now nobody could convince me that it was NOT hereditary. Frankly
> speaking I can see the holes in the very examples you cited. I think all the
> Hindu scholars will call me a dumb guy, but I always ask the following dumb
> question to the defenders of the case to prove that the caste system was NOT
> hereditary in the past:
>
>
>
> Question:
>
> If caste system was NOT hereditary at some point in the past, then there
> must have been a system in vogue sometime in the past to regulate the caste
> system so that it does not become hereditary. A system like say at the age
> of (5, 10, 12 you name it) the boy or girl is taken to a test (like the
> Mandarins in China) where they are tested and someone is declaring "OK, you
> become a Brahmin, you become a Sudra etc.'   If you think carefully, without
> such a Mandarin system in vogue, caste system will have to be hereditary.
>
>
>
> Now out of the million written words, stories, upakhyans in so many Hindu
> Kabya, Mahalkbaya, Purans etc can anyone can show me one single incident
> which will indicate that such a system ever existed in India.
>
>
>
> So far nobody could show me. But there may be such instances. But as I
> told you I am a dumb guy. Show me where is the beef.
>
>
>
> I think we should accept whatever it was in the past and move on. But we
> should not try to defend something which is not true.
>
>
>
> But I amy be wrong. I would like to see someone proving that I am wrong.
>
>
>
> That will be an enlightenment.
>
> Rajen Barua
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Himendra Thakur <hthakur at comcast.net>
>
>
> *To:* Barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com>;
> umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu
>
> *Cc:* hthakur at comcast.net ; assam at assamnet.org
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:02 PM
>
>
> *Subject:* Hereditary Caste System in India
>
>
> Dear Rajen, Ram and Umesh,
>
>
>
>
> As regards hereditary caste system, please consider the frollowing few
> points:
>
>
>
>
> Out of many verses of Rikveda, the famous twelfth verse of the Purusha
> Sukta of Rikveda sounds non-typical:
>
> *brahmana asya mukham asit bahu rajanyakah kritah*
>
> *ubdha tat asya yad vaishyah padbhyam sudrah ajayata*
>
>
>
>
> "brahmin became his mouth, kshatriya (became his) arms, vaishya (became
> his) thighs, sudra was born from the feet"  �
>
>
>
>
>
> The distinctive use of the words "became" (*asit*) and "born" (*ajayata*)
> indicates that this verse is not typical of most of the allegorical
> descriptions in Rik Veda verses. Some scholars [I am still seeking the
> reference] opine that this verse was added to Rik Veda at a later time by
> interested parties. On the other hand, the creation of the castes is
> described in a different way in Shatapatha Brahmana (2/10/11) or Taittiriya
> Brahmana (3/12/9/2) where the sudra caste is not mentioned at all.
>
>
>
>
> More accurately, at another place in Rik Veda (9/112), we hear the rishi :
>
> " � job of all persons cannot be  the same. A carpenter straightens wood,
> a physician looks after a patient, and a singer seeks the priest. Look at me
> !  I am a hymn-writer, my son is a physician, and my daughter is a cook �"
>
>
>
>
> Bhagavadgita is absolutely clear (4/13) that the four castes were created
> according to* guna* and* karma* (aptitude and job) � definitely not
> according to birth. The verses 41-44 in chapter 18 are description of the
> different natural aptitudes of different people, not a justification of the
> hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>
> A Brahmin, the so called highest caste of Hindus, is defined as a
> person with a heart as pure as a newborn baby. This proves that all newborn
> babies are Brahmin. This is supported by the verse in Mahabharata (Shanti
> Parva Chapter 188):
>
>
> *na visheshah asti varnanam sarvam bhahmam idam jagat*
>
> *brahmana purvasristam hi karmabhih varnatam gatam*
>
>
>
>
> "There is nothing so special about the hereditary castes. At the
> beginning, everyone is a Brahmin.  Castes come up later according to job."
>
>
>
>
> One thousand years before Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita, Chandogya
> Upanishad carried the wonderful story of Satyakama where an illegitimate son
> of a slave woman was accepted as a brahmin. Later Satyakama became the
> principal hymn writer in Chandogya Upanishad. His disciple, Upakoshal, saw
> the famous truth "Sky is Love"* yadeva kham tadeva kam iti.*
>
>
>
>
> *GROUND REALITY OF HEREDITARY CASTE SYSTEM TODAY: *
>
> In spite of all scriptural clarification, Hindus in India cannot get rid
> of the immovable yoke of hereditary caste system. It is very important to
> study the cause.
>
>
>
>
> The causes of hereditary caste system appear to be the same as those of
> racialism all over the world.
>
>
>
>
> In modern India, democracy is ruined by caste-oriented vote-banks
> practiced by the political parties. Unimaginable violence and cruelty are
> committed in the name of caste. Dowry system, that causes bride-burning in
> many cases, flourishes in the system of arranged marriage, which is a direct
> consequence of hereditary caste system.
>
>
>
>
> I think Inter-caste marriage, based on love and commitment between the
> couples, will eliminate the twin-headed monster of hereditary caste system
> and dowry system in India.
>
>
>
>
> With the best wishes,
>
> Himendra
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:06 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> Rajen-da,
>
>
>
> Even this verse by itself doesnot say that Brahmin is by birth - it merely
> states that Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or brain) - thus does show
> that intellect is superior to other things - if you believe that one part of
> human body is more important than others. Kshatriya is said to come from
> arms - denoting strength -used for fighting -does not say about hereditary
> caste system.
>
>
>
> On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the sense that all people in
> any soicety are doing equally important work - just as parts of a human body
> - regardless of their social status. I repeat - no mention of hereditary
> caste system.
>
>
>
>
> Umesh
>
> *Rajen Barua <**barua25 at hotmail.com* <barua25 at hotmail.com>*>* wrote:
>
> I think it is the Gita.
>
> I will check
>
> Rajenda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> I do recall that there is such a verse but I do not recall seeing it in
> Geeta or that Krishna said it.
>
>
>
> Umesh
>
> *Rajen Barua <**barua25 at hotmail.com* <barua25 at hotmail.com>*>* wrote:
>
> I will have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states bothways:
>
>
>
> Those who are born out of my head are the Brahmins
>
> Those who are born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
>
> Those who are born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
>
> Those who are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
>
>
>
> Can you check if above is true.
>
>
>
> Rajenda
>
>
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>
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