[Assam] caste system

Mon Mar 27 11:20:58 PST 2006

Really good questions Rajib. I of course don't have answers for you.
But specially this:
"If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims
would have an even tougher time defending their
religions to their children, wouldn't they?"

But will await others who may have.

--Ram da

On 3/27/06, Rajib Das <rajibdas at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can
> answer:
>
> 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name of
> Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma?
>
> 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
> only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
> posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?
>
> 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right.
> But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
> are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
> the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to
> be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and
> action, would it change anything in the way we
> percieve things about Hinduism?
>
> 3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word Sanatana
> Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of the
> Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu
> allowed to reject certain tenets?
>
> 4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the
> interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion itself)
> to be changed over time or by different scholars?
>
> 5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more
> specifically, is it specified anywhere in the Vedas
> that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more
> specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what
> percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna?
>
> 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
> from the time of when the transition of leadership was
> to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since
> it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
> kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and
> should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?
>
> 7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,
> keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
> was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
> therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
> Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?
>
> 8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godless
> communist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead the
> most wanton killings in modern times and the rationale
> they gave to those killings?
>
>
>
> Finally the last 2 questions:
>
> 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence
> of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any one
> of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the
> gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look
> forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
> religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to
> a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?
>
> More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
> meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with
> Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the
> rejection of it?
>
> After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu
> fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu
> fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following
> through the times to change things.
>
> 10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did
> to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
> there was for the longest time in history (and still
> is) such gross injustice within our religious and
> social order that things needed to change? And why
> would they not accept it as a part of the bad they
> inherit in as much as all the good they could?
>
> If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims
> would have an even tougher time defending their
> religions to their children, wouldn't they?
>
>
>
>
> --- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> > >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> > the existence of
> > >all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and
> > then to march
> > >forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism
> > that is in
> > >consonance with modern society and >liberal values.
> > The trouble with
> > >this approach is that in all honesty, you >cannot
> > be very sure of
> > >what it is you are clutching on to & therefore, in
> > the >long run,
> > >are bound to run into certain contradictions -
> > perhaps as
> > >your >children question you....
> >
> >
> > *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the
> > inquisitive children are
> > enough  of a deterrence to that attempt at living in
> > a make-believe
> > world. I have seen 'children' of those who would
> > choose to live in a
> > delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the
> > image of their
> > parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing  to
> > perpetuate the myths
> > and the delusions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote:
> > >Saurav,
> > >
> > >Thanks for your knowledgeable note.
> > >
> > >Two observations:
> > >
> > >1. There are probably quite a few historical
> > instances where castes
> > >have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or
> > community that has
> > >come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a
> > late stage. Indeed,
> > >the process by which an outside jati enters into
> > mainstream Hindu
> > >society must logically consist of at least two
> > social processes.
> > >First, the way the existing mainstream society -
> > the upper castes -
> > >in particular, view the community in question - an
> > exogenous aspect.
> > >Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes
> > & redefines its
> > >own social stratification using the adopted
> > language and mirrors of
> > >mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect.
> > Indeed, these two
> > >processes need not be congruent. The relics of
> > these processes are
> > >found in several low caste untouchable communities
> > that have their
> > >own "Brahmins". To the mainstream outsider, they
> > are all
> > >untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste
> > system within - a
> > >microcosm of the society that lies above them. A
> > similar stru!
> > >  cture is also observed with respect to many
> > tribes prior to the
> > >importing of Brahmins from mainstream society.
> > >
> > >2. The varna system, like many other aspects of
> > Hindu society, is in
> > >fundamental contradiction with modern society. The
> > question in my
> > >mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The
> > real question is
> > >how will Hindus resolve these contradictions
> > between what they ought
> > >to hold sacred and the needs of actual material
> > life in today's
> > >society.
> > >
> > >One option is to stand by the varna system and all
> > other traditional
> > >mores, to oppose liberal western values and in
> > effect, do a
> > >fundamentalist jig.
> > >
> > >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> > the existence of
> > >all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then
> > to march forward
> > >with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in
> > consonance with
> > >modern society and liberal values. The trouble with
> > this approach is
> > >that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of
> > what it is you are
> > >clutching on to & therefore, in the long run, are
> > bound to run into
> > >certain contradictions - perhaps as your children
> > question you....
> > >
> > >A third option would be to abandon the grand
> > tradition altogether
> > >and, in effect, convert to religious orders that
> > have their own
> > >philosphical systems that, even though historically
> > rooted in the
> > >grand narrative, actually offer a distinct
> > axiomatic system
> > >(Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such
> > early orders, as were
> > >some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is
> > essentially
> > >fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand
> > Hindu identity. But
> > >it may well be the most honest and logical way out
> > for those who
> > >seek a religion.
> > >
> > >Santanu-da.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: assam-bounces at assamnet.org on behalf of
> > xourov pathok
> > >Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM
> > >To: assam at assamnet.org
> > >Subject: [Assam] caste system
> > >
> > >a short note on the caste system:
> > >
> > >the varna system, which found its first mention in
> > the
> > >rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken
> > tradition
> > >of hinduism.  gods have come and gone (from indra
> > to
> > >rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed
> > (from
> > >yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted.
> > >there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did
> > not
> > >have a name for itself earlier.  this is not true.
> > >the name of the religion was varnashram dharma.
> > the
> > >varna system is the most defining aspect of
> > hinduism.
> > >
> > >another dictum is that it divides.  this also is
> > >untrue.  in fact the varna system makes it possible
> > >for a jati to place itself in a readymade order.
> > this
> > >is important because there is no personal
> > conversion
> > >system in hinduism.  instead entire jatis are
> > >converted (by placing them in the varna system),
> > like
> > >the scythians and the koches were made hindus by
> > >placing them in the kshatriya varna.  this is
> > >important.  because it lets, say, a sarma or a
> > barua
> > >from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a
> > >aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu.
> > >
> > >since the varna system is the most defining aspect
> > of
> > >hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of
> > the religion?
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >assam mailing list
> > >assam at assamnet.org
> >
> >http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >assam mailing list
> > >assam at assamnet.org
> >
> >http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > assam mailing list
> > assam at assamnet.org
> >
> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> assam mailing list
> assam at assamnet.org
> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.assamnet.org/pipermail/assam-assamnet.org/attachments/20060327/ff227607/attachment.htm>