[Assam] caste system

Roy, Santanu sroy at mail.smu.edu
Mon Mar 27 12:19:09 PST 2006 

Dear Rajib: 
I cannot answer all of your questions. I can see that some of them are
rhetorical. There are others I really don't know the answers to.But I
can try to put some kind of response for a few. 

2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to and
only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does it
posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical canvas?

SR: As I understand it, the 4 castes are inextricably tied to the reward
and punishment structure posited by karma and rebirth. If you do very
well, you will be reborn as a higher caste. If you do very badly, you
may become a shudra or even worse, born as an animal. In each life, you
pay or reap the rewards for your earlier lives. Therefore, you should
accept your current station in life as a temporary state and abide by
the bondages dutifully so that you can rise up in later lives. And if
you do this very very well, you may even escape the cycle of birth and
death some day. 

2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all right.
But do the Vedas themselves specify that the Varnas
are defined by birth? Or did it come much later with
the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were not to
be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will and
action, would it change anything in the way we
percieve things about Hinduism?

SR: Answer to last question: it would. It would screw up the incentive
system tied to cycles of life and death as posited in the early
scriptures. 

 
6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history right
from the time of when the transition of leadership was
to happen from the prophet to his disciples and since
it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something and
should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?

SR: Islam is very much face to face with the contradictions between some
of its core narrative and the values of modern society. This is the
basic clash of civilizations we are supposed to be in the midst of. 

7. Should Christianity with its reference to slavery,
keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all it
was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?

SR: I don't know much about this. The New Testament in effect does
reject some of the tenets of the old testament. I am not aware of
slavery being a central tenet of Christian faith at any point of time. I
thought Christians themselves were enslaved and fed to lions in the
first few centuries after Christ. As a philosophical, the Christian
doctrine does not - as far as I am aware - propose slavery as a crucial
element in the chain of earth and heaven.  I'd like to hear more about
this. However, there are other aspects of core Christian tenets that may
be in contradiction to modern life. Homosexuality, premarital sex,
divorce and so on.  

9. Why is the option of plainly denying the existence
of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any one
of us really grow up with our parents teaching us the
gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really look
forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
religious/social events? Has anyone denied my right to
a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?

SR: The question you ask is whether you are still a Hindu (or why not)
even though you may have violated or not believed in all this stuff.
Nobody told you that you are not. I think this is not sufficient. 

More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
meaning of Varna (I assume no one has problems with
Ashrama) be in the order of things? Or even the
rejection of it?

After all there were enough reformers within the Hindu
fold (and even Buddha wasn't exactly outside the Hindu
fold in his life, was he?) who had enough following
through the times to change things. 

SR: You are probably arguing in effect for a new philosophical system
that is more in accordance with your view of life. That is a new
religion. You may not call it so. 


10. And why should we forget what our forefathers did
to our religion? Why should our kids not learn that
there was for the longest time in history (and still
is) such gross injustice within our religious and
social order that things needed to change? And why
would they not accept it as a part of the bad they
inherit in as much as all the good they could? 



If such were the logic then the Christians and Muslims
would have an even tougher time defending their
religions to their children, wouldn't they?

SR: They do. It will become harder over time. We too should have a hard
time. My point is that some people are in denial. They don't want to
have a hard time. I am glad you are not in that set. 

Take care-

Santanu-da. 


--- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:

> >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> the existence of 
> >all these >aspects (as many on this net do) and
> then to march 
> >forward with a very >selective view of Hinduism
> that is in 
> >consonance with modern society and >liberal values.
> The trouble with 
> >this approach is that in all honesty, you >cannot
> be very sure of 
> >what it is you are clutching on to & therefore, in
> the >long run, 
> >are bound to run into certain contradictions -
> perhaps as 
> >your >children question you....
> 
> 
> *** Well said Santanu. But I am not sure the
> inquisitive children are 
> enough  of a deterrence to that attempt at living in
> a make-believe 
> world. I have seen 'children' of those who would
> choose to live in a 
> delusion, raised, indoctrinated and molded in the
> image of their 
> parents :-), who grow up perfectly willing  to
> perpetuate the myths 
> and the delusions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 9:57 PM -0600 3/26/06, Roy, Santanu wrote:
> >Saurav,
> >
> >Thanks for your knowledgeable note.
> >
> >Two observations:
> >
> >1. There are probably quite a few historical
> instances where castes 
> >have been fostered within a non-Aryan jati or
> community that has 
> >come into contact with mainstream Hinduism at a
> late stage. Indeed, 
> >the process by which an outside jati enters into
> mainstream Hindu 
> >society must logically consist of at least two
> social processes. 
> >First, the way the existing mainstream society -
> the upper castes - 
> >in particular, view the community in question - an
> exogenous aspect. 
> >Second, the way the jati views itself and reshapes
> & redefines its 
> >own social stratification using the adopted
> language and mirrors of 
> >mainstream Hindu society -an endogenous aspect.
> Indeed, these two 
> >processes need not be congruent. The relics of
> these processes are 
> >found in several low caste untouchable communities
> that have their 
> >own "Brahmins". To the mainstream outsider, they
> are all 
> >untouchable, but to the insider there is a caste
> system within - a 
> >microcosm of the society that lies above them. A
> similar stru!
> >  cture is also observed with respect to many
> tribes prior to the 
> >importing of Brahmins from mainstream society.
> >
> >2. The varna system, like many other aspects of
> Hindu society, is in 
> >fundamental contradiction with modern society. The
> question in my 
> >mind is not whether Hinduism can be reformed. The
> real question is 
> >how will Hindus resolve these contradictions
> between what they ought 
> >to hold sacred and the needs of actual material
> life in today's 
> >society.
> >
> >One option is to stand by the varna system and all
> other traditional 
> >mores, to oppose liberal western values and in
> effect, do a 
> >fundamentalist jig.
> >
> >The other option is to gloss over and plainly deny
> the existence of 
> >all these aspects (as many on this net do) and then
> to march forward 
> >with a very selective view of Hinduism that is in
> consonance with 
> >modern society and liberal values. The trouble with
> this approach is 
> >that in all honesty, you cannot be very sure of
> what it is you are 
> >clutching on to & therefore, in the long run, are
> bound to run into 
> >certain contradictions - perhaps as your children
> question you.... 
> >
> >A third option would be to abandon the grand
> tradition altogether 
> >and, in effect, convert to religious orders that
> have their own 
> >philosphical systems that, even though historically
> rooted in the 
> >grand narrative, actually offer a distinct
> axiomatic system 
> >(Buddhism and Jainism were among the many such
> early orders, as were 
> >some of the Vaishnava orders). The third option is
> essentially 
> >fractious and inimical to the cause of a grand
> Hindu identity. But 
> >it may well be the most honest and logical way out
> for those who 
> >seek a religion.
> >
> >Santanu-da.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: assam-bounces at assamnet.org on behalf of
> xourov pathok
> >Sent: Mon 3/27/2006 4:37 AM
> >To: assam at assamnet.org
> >Subject: [Assam] caste system
> >
> >a short note on the caste system:
> >
> >the varna system, which found its first mention in
> the
> >rig veda itself, has been the only unbroken
> tradition
> >of hinduism.  gods have come and gone (from indra
> to
> >rudra to krishna), forms of worship has changed
> (from
> >yajnas to puja) but the varna system has persisted.
> >there is an oft repeated dictum, that hinduism did
> not
> >have a name for itself earlier.  this is not true.
> >the name of the religion was varnashram dharma. 
> the
> >varna system is the most defining aspect of
> hinduism.
> >
> >another dictum is that it divides.  this also is
> >untrue.  in fact the varna system makes it possible
> >for a jati to place itself in a readymade order. 
> this
> >is important because there is no personal
> conversion
> >system in hinduism.  instead entire jatis are
> >converted (by placing them in the varna system),
> like
> >the scythians and the koches were made hindus by
> >placing them in the kshatriya varna.  this is
> >important.  because it lets, say, a sarma or a
> barua
> >from assam relate in a some meaningful way with a
> >aiyar or an iyengar from tamil nadu.
> >
> >since the varna system is the most defining aspect
> of
> >hinduism, how can you remove or reform it out of
> the religion?
> >
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