[Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006 -ISKCON's Gita interpretation & white skinned Brahmins

Tue Mar 28 12:09:16 PST 2006

>Hinduism had everything that it needed when Buddhism came.

Buddhism came around 327 BC. Did it come about before Hinduism?

On 3/28/06, Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Umesh:
> There was  never anything new to add to any religion at any time.
> When Christianity came, Judaism had everything needed for a religion.
> When Islam came, Christianity had everything.
> Hinduism had everything that it needed when Buddhism came.
> Religion is a question of attitude after all.
> Buddha did not discover anything new nor he said anything new.
> According to him he simply found a old abandoned path which he took.
>
> In one way Hinduism is like the Republicans. When you think you got them,
> they will very smartly come up with an example which will show that they are
> actually doing more for the blacks and the poor than the Democrats.
> The difference however between the R & D is again in the attitude.
> Hindusim and Buddhism is also like that.
> Buddhism simply took the position to insist that all men have equal
> potential for achieving the highest goal in life which is Buddhahood.
> Hindusim took the practical position that all the fingers are not equal,
> and here is why.....
> Yes you can show all those examples.
> And if you go deeper you will also find why a lower caste guy Valmiki had
> to write the Ramayana or the bastard Vyas had to compile the Vedas. It is
>  because in their past lives they were such and such....   and finally you
> loose track of the moral of the story completly except remembering that  it
> is 'karma' and duty which control everything.
> It is all in the attitude.
> Please note that I am not trying undermine Hinduism. I am just trying to
> say what it is without adding or creating anything new.
> All the fingers are not equal.
>  RB
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
>  *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
>  *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2006 11:51 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006 -ISKCON's Gita interpretation &
> white skinned Brahmins
>
>
> Rajen-da,
>
> We were discussing about Gita and I think I made my point. Now you talk
> about Bheeshma quote (without references - I think you picked it up from
> C-da'd old '02 mail  mentioned today) then I can give the example of
> Vishwamitra who became a Brahmin despite being born in Kshatrya caste (if
> you go by the ongoing logic that caste is by birth) --
>
> for that matter Mahabharat was not an ideal state as far as Hindu ages go
> -- it was a corrupted one in which God had to take human form to do away
> with the evil --and lots of Brahmins and Kshatrya's got killed by God's
> grace -to root out evil -in Mahabharat war.
>
> How about so-called lower caste Valmiki writing holy Ramayan or bastard
> Veda Vyas penning the holiest Vedas and Mahabharat. How about the tales of
> the butcher who had acquiered a high state of being - just by practicing his
> trade uprightly.
>
> Hinduism also says about human body as a divine opportunity to achieve
> salvation -- I'm sure you must have heard this upteen times -if you ever
> attended any religious discourse or meeting -- of any group of Hindus.
>
>
>
> Buddhism does not add to Hinduism -- it only subtracts the negatives of
> the then existing society -- and later adds its own versions of Gods and
> incarnations. However, still Buddhism largely follows the principle tenets
> -- Hinduism has acquired an unholy hue in form of rigid caste system.
>
> Umesh
>
>
>
> *Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
> >It is utopian to think that all humans are equal -- thats what communism
> also says
> >It is practical to admit that each one should rise to do best what s/he
> can do in their lives.
>
> Yes, you are right Hinduism is a practical religion to go by to maintain
> the status quo.
> But the problem is we also have the following in Hinduism for which one
> cannot rise to do the best.
>
> >"Bhishma said:The status of a Brahmana is incapable of acquisition by a
> >person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the
> >highest with respect to all creatures.
>
> Hinduism highlighted the inequality in human being in so many words. When
> we couple that with 'karma' and 'duty', one's mind is set.
> Buddhism did not highlighted this difference.
>
> When the US constitution says 'all men are equal' it does not mean all men
> have equal quality etc.
> When Buddhism says "All men are born equal and all have equal potential to
> attain Budhahood  it does not mean all are equally qualified to be scholars
> or computer scientists. It just mean all have equal potential to be the
> perfect man and attain Buddhahood in his lifetime"
> (You may still say: It is utopian to think that all humans are equal --
> thats what communism also says)
> And with the same mode of thinking, Hinduism highlight this inequality.
> Not only that it gives a convincing reason and justification why men are not
> equal.
> Five fingers are never equal.
> Basically Hinduism looked at the differences and philosophized and
> perpetuated these differences with the mode of thinking that the glass is
> always half empty.
> Buddhism ignored the difference and focused on how to make the glass full.
> "All men have equal potential to attain Buddhahood in his own lifetime."
> Rajenda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006 -ISKCON's Gita interpretation &
> white skinned Brahmins
>
>
> Rajen-da,
>
> I again repeat that you are perpetuating the wrong notion that Guna is
> equal to birthright. Human beings are inherently distint from each other -
> and that each should rise to his or her own potential. Moreover Gita says
> that not only humans but even animals have souls.
>
> It is utopian to think that all humans are equal -- thats what communism
> also says. It is practical to admit that each one should rise to do best
> what s/he can do in their lives.
>
> Umesh
>
> PS: By perpetuating the interpretation that Guna = caste by birth I do not
> think any purpose is being served. ISKCON has chosen the right path to
> interpret Gita as it was meant to be --since most of its followers have no
> caste by birth at all - being converts. Their defiition of Brahmin priests
> in their temple is those  who get up daily early morning and spend whole day
> in prayer and temple activities - even those who pray part time are not
> considered so. They have to wear dhoti etc only
>
>  They do put up notices that for such and such event only Brahmins will
> take part - but they rightly exclude people like my father or anyone who
> calls himself Brahmin by birth but does not follow the path. On the other
> hand most of those are qualified to attend these ceremonies are white
> skinned Brahmins ffrom the West .
>
> Incidently, Srila Prabhupad who started the ISKCON movement was not
> Brahmin by birth but definitely one by actions or Gunas. He promoted Gita as
> the Bible of Vaishnavas -since he believed that Hindusim was too muddled to
> correctly interpret the Gita -so he promoted Vaishnavism
>
> *Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
> The difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is what they are higlighting.
> Hindusim is highlighting the inequality loud and clear, inequality in
> potential, quality, gunas, inequaliity of the caste system, different duties
> of different castes, one's duty to do his duty according to his caste and
> not to try to do duties of othe castes etc etc. Thus Hinduism is basically
> 'status quo' go on doing whatever your caste dictates and it will be all
> right. Gita has rather perpetated this Hindu ideal by speaking through the
> mouth of God.
>
> Buddhism does not highlight these inequalities in men. Buddhism rather
> ignored these and professed that every man has equal potential to be the
> perfect man (Buddhahood) and that all men are equal and that the main
> purpose of life is to be happy by attaining enlightenment and become a
> Buddha yourself  etc etc. According to Buddhism all men are created equal,
> it is men rather who is making it not so.
>
> That is the difference.
>
> RB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:40 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> Rajen-da,
>
> I guess you are right when you compare with the Buddha ideal - that all
> humans have equal potential - and that message does get lost when you say
> that some people have more potential and aptitude in priestly matters and
> others have more in warrior like or governance matters and others in service
> industry (incl perhaps public school education and computers) or business.
>
> I wonder where the Theory of Multiple Intelligences fits in which says
> that different individuals learn differently . It is a very famous theory in
> education propounded by Howard Gardner - a professor at Harvard - andused by
> schools across the world.
>
> Umesh
>
> *Barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Umesh:
> On this one will have to go deeper.
> First we need to determine when Gita was composed.
> Second, what was behind the theory of the four caste system.
> Third, how and when the caste system in India actually started.
> All these are linked up.
> My position is that Gita has perpetuated the caste system in India. It is
> like what the British did in India thousands years later.
> Gita has highlihted the point to the Indians ages and ages to come that
> all men are not created equal, a point completely opposite to the present
> day ideal. Because of the Gita every Indian mind is programmed that way
> inspite of the American ideal.
> It is also 180 degree opposite to the Buddhist principle which states that
> all men are created equal and have equal potential for Buddhahood.
> Think on these lines and comment.
> Rajenda
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> Rajen-da,
>
> Even this verse by itself doesnot say that Brahmin is by birth - it merely
> states that Brahmins are intellectuals (from head or brain) - thus does show
> that intellect is superior to other things - if you believe that one part of
> human body is more important than others. Kshatriya is said to come from
> arms - denoting strength -used for fighting -does not say about hereditary
> caste system.
>
> On the other hand it speaks of cohesion - in the sense that all people in
> any soicety are doing equally important work - just as parts of a human body
> - regardless of their social status. I repeat - no mention of hereditary
> caste system.
>
> Umesh
>
> *Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I think it is the Gita.
> I will check
> Rajenda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ; Ram Sarangapani<assamrs at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:37 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> I do recall that there is such a verse but I do not recall seeing it in
> Geeta or that Krishna said it.
>
> Umesh
>
> *Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I will have to read the verse in detail. I think Krishna states bothways:
>
> Those who are born out of my head are the Brahmins
> Those who are born out of my shoulder, are the Kshatriyas.
> Those who are born out of my stomach are the Vaishya.
> Those who are born out of my feet are the Sudras.
>
> Can you check if above is true.
>
> Rajenda
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com> ; Rajen Barua<barua25 at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* assam at assamnet.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:17 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Assam] HPI, March 20, 2006
>
>
> Rajen-da rote whether Gita would have to be revised to remove casteist
> remarks - I do not recall any!! The only ones defining caste are in chapter
> 18 shlokas 41-44 -which are not basd on birth - but on gunas or a person's
> nature and work or deeds. Manusmriti does perhaps needs to be overhauled -
> by ading new commentaries etc.
>
> umesh
>
> *Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> A cursory reading of the VHP message is interesting. The fact they are
> urging the rejection of castes is a good thing. But their reasons " in the
> interest of consolidating Hindu unity to fight conversions and "Jehadi"
> terror." is passe.
> The shadow of casteism must be erdicated from Hinduism. A good reason
> would be that all are treated equal within the religion. Of course, there
> are numerous social advantages.
>
> >Does it mean they will revise the Gita, the Manusmriti and all those
> Hindu scirptures now?
>
> I don't think they can (and nor are they claiming to). Whats written is
> written. Thats history. Hindus and Hinduism must be able to transcend the
> negatives in Manusmriti. The Old Testament (which has probably as many
> negatives in it) is not given much relevance by mainstream Christians for
> this very reason.
>
> >Manusmroti was written around 1st or 2nd AD or before . It has nothing to
> do with Jehadi
>
> While this is true, the VHP is probably thinking it needs to unite all
> Hindus against a possible "Jehadi" onsluaght on Hinduism. The VHP is
> probably trying to make political hay here. Nothing in the world of politics
> succeeds like dividing up people on caste, religion, language. And sadly, it
> may work.
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
> On 3/20/06, Rajen Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  >Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Grama Koil Poojarigal Peravai has
> > rejected varnashrama (system of four castes)
> >
> > Does it mean they will revise the Gita, the Manusmriti and all those
> > Hindu scirptures now?
> >
> > >varnashrama dharma, supposedly written in Manusmrithi, in the interest
> > of consolidating Hindu unity to fight conversions and "Jehadi" terror.
> > Why VHP is completely out of touch with History and wants to expose its
> > ignorance?
> > Manusmroti was written around 1st or 2nd AD or before . It has nothing
> > to do with Jehadi.
> > Wake up VHP.
> > Wake up Hindutva,
> > RB
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Hindu Press International <hpi.list at hindu.org>
> > *To:* undisclosed-recipients:
> > *Sent:* Monday, March 20, 2006 2:51 PM
> > *Subject:* HPI, March 20, 2006
> >
> >
> > [image: Hindu Press International] March 20, 2006
> >
> >    1. VHP Meeting Rejects Caste System<http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=page&name=gp&ver=3403410b768567d8#10a1995fdcb51741_1>
> >    2. Ancient Thailand Siva Temple To Experience Rare Alignment with
> >    Sun<http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=page&name=gp&ver=3403410b768567d8#10a1995fdcb51741_2>
> >
> >  1. VHP Meeting Rejects Caste System www.hindu.com
> > ERODE, INDIA, March 20, 2006: The fifth State Hindu Resurgence
> > Conference organized by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Grama Koil
> > Poojarigal Peravai has rejected varnashrama (system of four castes) and
> > sought an end to the practice of untouchability. Addressing the conference
> > at the CNC College grounds on Sunday, VHP international president Ashok
> > Singhal said untouchability had no sanction in the Vedas and dharma
> > sasthras. Ancient history and mythology had no record on it. Alien
> > aggressions could have led to the practice. He also called upon the heads of
> > mutts (ashrams and theological centers) to give manthra deeksha (mantra
> > initiation) to all without discrimination. Mr. Singhal said the VHP was
> > outrightly rejecting varnashrama dharma, supposedly written in Manusmrithi,
> > in the interest of consolidating Hindu unity to fight conversions and
> > "Jehadi" terror.
> >
> > Expressing concern over the living conditions of grama temple pujaris, a
> > resolution passed urged the State to give them US$22.72 a month. The
> > families should continue to receive it after the pujaris' death. It sought
> > free power supply to rural temples. The State government should ensure
> > financial assistance for temple festivals and at least one puja, worship
> > service, daily.
> >
> > The resolution included a "Hindu Agenda" in the form of an appeal to
> > political parties. It sought exemption for temple land from all land reforms
> > legislation, a statutory autonomous board and a State dharmic council for
> > "better" administration of temples. It sought a ban on conversions and cow
> > slaughter and decried demands for reservation to minorities (that is,
> > extending affirmative action programs for Hindu untouchables and tribals to
> > Christians and Muslims). It sought an end to discrimination on legal and
> > constitutional lines in favor of minority institutions. It urged the Centre
> > (India's federal government) to facilitate reconstruction of the Ram temple
> > at Ayodhya and the State (of Tamil Nadu) to withdraw all cases against the
> > Kanchi Sankaracharya.
> >
> > Expressing concern at the "declining Hindu population, which was growing
> > at 22 p er cent as against the growth of minority population at 35 per
> > cent," it urged the Centre to bring in a uniform civil code by implementing
> > the directive principle under Article 44 of India's Constitution.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >  2. Ancient Thailand Siva Temple To Experience Rare Alignment with Sun
> > www.etravelblackboard.com<http://www.etravelblackboard.com/index.asp?id=49004&nav=13>
> > CHALERMPHRAKIAT DISTRICT, BURI RAM PROVINCE, THAILAND, March 20, 2006:
> > In Hindu and Buddhist cosmology, mountains are believed to be homes to the
> > Gods. Prasat Hin Khao Phanom Rung, a magnificent temple sanctuary set on the
> > summit of Phanom Rung Hill, was built between the 10th and 13th centuries.
> > According to the stone inscriptions in Sanskrit and Khmer found at the site,
> > the original name of the temple complex is Phanom Rung, Khmer words meaning
> > "big mountain." A religious sanctuary dedicated to the Hindu God, Siva,
> > Prasat Hin Khao Phanom Rung symbolizes Mount Kailasa, the heavenly abode of
> > Siva. Phanom Rung Hill rises 350 metres above the surrounding plain.
> > Astrologers have predicted that an extraordinary astro-archaeological
> > phenomenon will occur at sunrise during the April 3-5 period this year. The
> > doors of the temple sanctuary are so perfectly aligned that during this
> > period, at sunrise on a cloudless day with clear blue skies, the sun's rays
> > will shin e through all fifteen doorways of the sanctuary in a single shaft
> > of light.
> >
> > These magnificent man-made sandstone sanctuaries, often referred to as
> > palaces of the Gods, sit atop hills rising above the high plains of I-san
> > and still bear witness to the half millennium from the 9th to 14th centuries
> > during which a powerful Khmer state flourished in the region, including what
> > is today northwestern Cambodia. These extraordinary towers comprise elements
> > of temple architecture meant to symbolise Mount Meru, the mythical peak at
> > the center of the Hindu-Buddhist universe. Sometimes referred to as "high
> > Cambodia," the provinces of Buri Ram, Surin, Nakhon Ratchasima and Sisaket
> > were a perfect setting for the development of these Meru microcosms.
> > Although Thai folk belief once held that the larger, cruciform-plan
> > monuments served as palaces for Angkor's all-powerful kings, in fact these
> > buildings were designed as temporary abodes for Siva, Vishnu, Maitreya and
> > other Deities called to earth via religious ritual. To the east of I-san's
> > temple-dotted pl ateaus lay the river valleys of "low Cambodia," the
> > heartland of Angkorean civilization where its kings resided.
> >
> > A sacred "superhighway" linked Prasat Phimai with 12th-century Angkor
> > Wat, the largest and most complex of the Khmer temples. Angkor rulers were
> > at the time considered to be devaraja or "god-kings," and to maintain that
> > vaunted status they and their priests periodically travelled between key
> > monuments to perform complex ceremonies involving fire, water, and
> > Sivalingam. Monuments en route offered spiritual and temporal support along
> > these potentially arduous journeys, including 102 "houses with fire" and 121
> > "hospitals" or "healing stations" (arokayasala). These structures became so
> > important to the sanctity of the Angkor empire that some 300 Khmer shrines
> > were erected between the 7th and 13th centuries. Temple construction reached
> > its zenith in the 12th and 13th centuries.
> >
> > For information on visiting these temples, go to the web site of the
> > Tourism Authority of Thailand, here <http://www.tat.or.th/>.
> > ------------------------------
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> Umesh Sharma
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> College Park, MD 20740
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> 1-202-215-4328 [Cell Phone]
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> Ed.M. - International Education Policy
> Harvard Graduate School of Education,
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> College Park, MD 20740
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> 1-202-215-4328 [Cell Phone]
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> Ed.M. - International Education Policy
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