[Assam] caste system

[Rajib Das]

Souravda,

Some responses to the points you have made:

1. As per my readings, earlier it used to be called
just Dharma (not Varnashrama Dharma) and Dharma became
Sanatana Dharma later when other religions came about
on Indian soil which are also essentially Dharmic in
origin. I haven't really found a reference to the
whole of Hinduism being represented as Varnashrama
Dharma anywhere. 

2. No doubt - Manusmriti is where the Varnas are
codified into an unjust social order. But Manusmriti
came much much later and was not a part of the
original scriptures - those that ONLY some consider as
infallible in Hinduism. Manusmriti can be thrown away
very easily. And that is where my questions were
regarding what exactly did you find in the original
scriptures (the Rig Veda if you may) regarding a
hereditary system of Varna. And how much does it
impact the core essence of Hinduism.  

3. The fight for Dalits and Tribals is one of the many
elements of the interest in throwing Varna out. There
are others such as OBCs, SCs and in certain regions
even Brahmins that clamor for change. By itself it is
a noble enough cause for which there would be
transformation. In fact, the VHP's highly successful
strategy in the tribal belt of Gujarat is about 2/3
things: Social Welfare, a non-Varna system and the
restoration of the village deities. Is there anything
wrong with the whole idea?

I am not convinced with what has been presented that
the Varna system as defined in the original scriptures
(and NOT Manusmriti) is the most defining aspect of
Hinduism. I am not convinced also that if the Varna
system is thrown out or modified it will result in
contradictions in the essence of Hinduism coming to
the fore. My questions really was about addressing
this point - not about whether in my personal capacity
I am a Hindu or not.

 


--- xourov pathok <xourov at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Rajib Das <rajibdas at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Here are a few questions. Hopefully you guys can
> > answer:
> >
> 
> many of the questions you ask can be encapsulated
> into
> "why am i a hindu?"  i leave those questions alone,
> because those are personal questions which every man
> has to answer for himself.  i am merely adding my
> comments to only the varna related parts.  
> 
> here i would like to point out that a critical (that
> is objective, not antagonistic) look at religions is
> not equivalent to challenging either their value
> systems or questioning anyone's personal religious
> choices.   
> 
> 
>  
> > 1. Is Varnashrama Dharma really the original name
> of
> > Hinduism or is it Sanatana Dharma?
> > 
> 
> sanatana dharma is a later concept that incorporates
> many other aspects of hinduism, including that of
> varnashram dharma.
> 
> "sanatana dharma" never became a popular name for
> the
> religion.  though it is an older name, i would guess
> that it became more widely used in the 19th century
> as
> a result of the many hindu reformist movements in
> that
> period.
> 
> 
> > 2. Does Varnashrama Dharma refer specifically to
> and
> > only to the 4 castes and the 4 ashramas - or does
> it
> > posit on a bigger spiritual and philosophical
> > canvas?
> 
> varnashram dharma sets down the duties for the 4
> castes with, of course, some spiritual and
> philosophical justifications.  the gita is one
> example
> but the best exposition is manusmriti.
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm
> 
> the dalits  do not fall anywhere in the varna
> system. 
> whereas many ethnic groups were accepted into the
> varna system, the dalits were very strongly kept
> away.
>  even though the buddha (whose religion posed the
> greatest threat to hinduism at one time) was later
> inducted into the pantheon of vishnu avatars, the
> dalits were vehemently rejected.  
> 
> the dalits today are as large as the muslim
> population
> in india and are an important component in the
> hindutva politics.  the animosity against the
> christians is essentially rooted in the battle over
> the dalits and the tribals.  this explains the new
> interest in dumping the varna system from hinduism.
> 
> 
> > 2. Varna finds its mention in the Rig Veda all
> > right.
> > But do the Vedas themselves specify that the
> Varnas
> > are defined by birth? Or did it come much later
> with
> > the likes of Manu? And if the Varna system were
> not
> > to
> > be defined by birth but by someone's desire, will
> > and
> > action, would it change anything in the way we
> > percieve things about Hinduism?
> 
> 
> it is very likely that the varna system has always
> been hereditary, because the main function of the
> system was to put an order in the myriad jatis that
> were entering it.  manusmriti (dated to 1st-2nd
> century bc) tried to codify this order and give it a
> rigidity.  the gita, which came earlier, already
> prescribed an evolved concept of the varna system as
> a
> answer to some ills.
> 
> the varna system has become rigid, but it is not
> absolute.  but what must be borne in mind is that it
> operates not on individuals but on jatis.  it is
> probably easier to find a community (as opposed to
> an
> individual) changing varna.  in more recent times
> when
> shivaji wanted to declare himself a king, the local
> brahmins refused to anoint him because of his "lowly
> origins".  shivaji then imported a brahman from
> elsewhere who drew up an impressive lineage and
> anointed him.  so along with shivaji, his community
> as
> well as his ancestors became kshatriyas.  it is
> possible to suspect that in such cases, if the
> community does not display the characteristics of
> the
> new varna over time it might relapse into the old
> varna.     
> 
> 
> > 
> > 3. Does Hinduism (or if I may use the word
> Sanatana
> > Dharma) specify clearly to the infallibility of
> the
> > Vedas themselves in their entirety? Or is a Hindu
> > allowed to reject certain tenets? 
> > 
> > 4. Does Hinduism (and do Hindus) leave the
> > interpretation of the Vedas (or their religion
> > itself)
> > to be changed over time or by different scholars? 
> > 
> > 5. Is Varna the central tenet of Hinduism - more
> > specifically, is it specified anywhere in the
> Vedas
> > that a Hindu MUST believe in Varna? Even more
> > specifically, exactly how many shlokas (or what
> > percentage) of the Rig Veda mention Varna?
> > 
> > 6. Since Islam has always had a bloody history
> right
> > from the time of when the transition of leadership
> > was
> > to happen from the prophet to his disciples and
> > since
> > it has enough mention in the Koran of killing of
> > kufrs, should it be called "Unsalaam" or something
> > and
> > should Muslims reject Islam in its entirety?
> > 
> > 7. Should Christianity with its reference to
> > slavery,
> > keep continuing to celebrate slavery - after all
> it
> > was ONE of the tenets expounded in the Bible and
> > therefore you cannot ignore it and ipso facto, a
> > Christian must reject the Bible in its entirety?
> >
> 
> 
> the case here is different.  the claim is that the
> varna system *is* the most defining aspect of
> hinduism
> (sanatana dharma if you will).  it defines who is a
> hindu and who is not.  you can get away with being
> an
> athiest (a charvaka) as long as you belonged to the
> varna system.
> 
> 
> > 8. Should Atheism find its glory in every Godless
> > communist despot (including Pol Pot) that lead the
> > most wanton killings in modern times and the
> > rationale
> > they gave to those killings?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Finally the last 2 questions:
> > 
> > 9. Why is the option of plainly denying the
> > existence
> > of "all these aspects" the only other way? Did any
> > one
> > of us really grow up with our parents teaching us
> > the
> > gunas of the Varnashrama system? Or did we really
> > look
> > forward to the excitement of Durga Puja and other
> > religious/social events? Has anyone denied my
> right
> > to
> > a Hindu religion when I married a Brahmin woman?
> > 
> > More so, why would not a re-interpretation of the
> 
=== message truncated ===


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