[Assam] Indian reality versus Western mythology

Sat Aug 11 18:18:57 PDT 2007

C'da,

I am not surprised that last para didn't get past you:). But really, there
wasn't anything subtle or implied if you will.

>I spoke to Tilok Daktor, our finest mind reader, and asked him why people
invoke the >"everything" everytime desi-defenders run into something that
they don't like to see or hear, >but are unable to refute or deny.

Poor Daktor Tilok - the mountain air must be hampering with his usually
sharp observations. He might even be getting senile. Please convey to the
good Daktor, there is no sinister ploy or plot:)
>Do you think Tilok Daktor is indulging in quackery?

Could well be. After having been banned from the Net and the financial
markets behaving eratically, he must lost his usual clientle, and may have
had to resort to skullduggery or quakery to support his life style:)

Now, for my comments:

Glad you agree and even support the first part as being mature etc. The
second part is actually the flip side of this statement. Logically, I don't
Reject (outright) anything - just because it came from India. Similarly, I
am not one of those who get all agog, and swear up & down because its from
India. And I am not sure why such an idea would germinate in the net:)

The "Everything" habit is actually a learned behavior. Over so many years of
seeing "Everything" India or Indian being bashed in this net, one learns a
few tricks of the trade, so to speak:).

And that actually brings us to your soul-searching,
'question-of-the-century'  *whether Indian education's has failed to
inculcate creative thinking?*

Now, I really need to take this to Daktor Tilok. Would like to ask him if
the above tantamounts to or implies "everything" in Indian education.
Whether its a grand sweeping statement, a wholesale indictment on Indian
education? I am sure he would know the answer (at least vicariously:)

I won't go deep into it - KC and you have covered quite a bit of ground on
that score.

All I would like add is that *I do not believe* that the education system is
a complete washout as some would like for it to be. There are problems, but
the same system also has time and again produced some of the best &
brightest. As pointed out earlier, many of them work in this country, and
they *could NOT have become creative overnight* just because they crossed
the seven seas. If you think different, you must share with us the secret of
such miracles. :)

--Ram

On 8/11/07, cmahanta at charter.net <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:

> Ram:
>
> >Well, anyway, thats my take. I am not too eager to base everything on
> India's ancient culture,
> > just as I am not too eager to cast away anything Indian, because its
> from India. :)
>
>
> *** The former is a mature response. But the latter: Is it something that
> you read in Rajen's post, as said explicitly or merely implied?
>
> I spoke to Tilok Daktor, our finest mind reader, and asked him why people
> invoke the "everything"
> everytime desi-defenders run into something that they don't like to see or
> hear, but are unable to refute or deny.
>
> He says it is one of those poorly camouflaged attempts to beat-up the
> bearer of bad news for desi-dom. An attempt to kick the object of their
> displeasures on the way out of the debate even as they accept the unpleasant
> truths like the grown-ups they are expected to be.
>
> Do you think Tilok Daktor is indulging in quackery?
>
> *** Anyway, what prompted me to butt in here was to ask all those fine
> Indians amongst us who were riled by my criticisms of Indian education's
> failure to inculcate creative thinking why there has been nothing coming
> even close to the creativity of the ancients, in recent centuries, from the
> inhabitants of the geographical area that is referred to as India in modern
> times?
>
> I sure hope the answer is not some voodoo-scientific explanation as a
> dilution of the genetic
> strength.
>
> c-da :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Barua:
> >
> > Those were some very astute observations. This is an interesting topic,
> and
> > other netters might want to weigh in.
> >
> > That malady that seemingly affects Indians seems to also affect some
> others
> > - the Chinese, the Arabs, Japanese etc. It is a standing joke that the
> > Chinese often declare that almost everything originated in China
> (including
> > the Assembly Line). The Arabs/Iranians declare the number system
> (decimal
> > system) and chesswas theirs so on and so forth.
> >
> > While, it may have been true that certain things did get
> invented/discovered
> > in these ancient lands (China, India, Iran etc), it seems that many of
> these
> > countries live in the their glorious past and have really forgotten the
> > lessons of the modern era.
> >
> > On the flip side, you have people in countries like the US who
> frequently
> > believe that the US is the center of the universe, and that everything
> it
> > does is for the benefit of humanity and that it is the caretaker of an
> > errant world. That kind of attitude is what actually led to situations
> and
> > involvements in Vietnam and Iraq.
> > To go on, people in countries like France believe that they were born
> with a
> > spoonful of sophistication and the rest of world is still in the dark
> ages.
> >
> > Now, having said all that:
> >
> > >First Indians never kept any good records of things (not to speak of
> > >historical records).
> >
> > I am not sure how such records were kept by other civilizations. My
> guess is
> > that the Indian (Hindu) civilization records mostly exist in the ruins
> of
> > Harappa/Mohenjadaro and of course ancient relics all across the country
> > (like the  Chinese or Egyptian ruins). Historians and anthropologists
> > gleaned 'records' from these ruins like they did from the pyramids.
> >
> > And yet you may be right that the East did not keep good records and
> hence
> > the West gave them little recognition (lack of solid proof).
> > But that still does not say that ancient Hindus were devoid of knowledge
> of
> > the sciences. (maybe they did not write it down, or maybe these have
> never
> > been found).
> >
> > But there is a certain bias when the West compares civilizations. It is
> only
> > recently that they grudgingly give some quarter to the East.
> > The Ancient West hardly saw beyond Rome and Greece.  Alexander too
> stopped
> > at the Hindukush. And it wasn't until Marco Polo that the West really
> > discovered the East, and much later Vasco de Gama to India. And hence
> the
> > West's reference point was always Rome, Greece and a little beyond.
> >
> > Well, anyway, thats my take.
> > I am not too eager to base everything on India's ancient culture,
> >  just as I am not too eager to cast away anything Indian, because its
> from
> > India. :)
> > --Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/10/07, Rajen & Ajanta Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Ram:
> > > Thanks for the reference which I saw before. The website however does
> not
> > > help much. Let me explain what the Indians are up against to establish
> their
> > > creditability.
> > >
> > > First Indians never kept any good records of things (not to speak of
> > > historical records).
> > >
> > > Say for the case of Geometry.
> > > The Greeks have established the fact that Pythagoras started the
> process
> > > of demonstrative geometry back in the *6th century BC* starting with
> the
> > > first demonstrative proof of the now famous Pythagoras Theorem.   Even
> if
> > > you read the website, you will find that the earliest records of the
> Hindu
> > > Geometry are in the so called Sulba Sutras which are considered to be
> > > written after the Vedas somewhere in *3rd or at the most 5th century
> BC.*Then even in those Sulba Sutras, there is no proof of any of the
> geometry
> > > but only the references (sutras) of knowledge of the different
> geometrical
> > > figures including the right angled triangle (Pythagoras
> triangle).  Then in
> > > case of Greek geometry, Euclid wrote a complete book with proofs of
> about 13
> > > famous geometry theorems sometime in *2nd century BC or so*. Against
> this,
> > > India never developed any demonstrative proof of any geometry at all
> till
> > > Euclid's book was translated into Sanskrit in sometime in the *16th
> > > century*. What we read in highschool geometry are all Greek Geometry
> from
> > > Euclid. This is not to say that Indians never discussed proofs on
> geometry
> > > theorems at all. They must have. But where is the proof.
> > >
> > > Similarly if you take the case of Astronomy, for each and every case
> of
> > > Hindu development, the West cites a prior Greek development so much so
> that
> > > the West is now telling that most of the Astronomy  India learned from
> the
> > > Greeks after the Alexander (323 BC). Even writers like Balsham and
> others
> > > admit that India borrowed Astronomy from Greeks. This is again not to
> say
> > > that Indians did not know astronomy before. The Vedas has reference to
> > > astronomy. But that is just reference. The record on the other hand
> shows
> > > that India actually were interested in Astronomy nor for the sake of
> > > Astronomy but for the sake of Astrology.
> > >
> > > We actually come to some solid ground only with Aryabhata in the 5th
> > > century during the Gupta period (*when the Greeks are long gone from
> the
> > > picture*). The West actually acknowledges Aryabhata to be one of the
> > > greatest Mathematicians who invented Algebra, Trigonometry, a
> heliocentric
> > > solar system, earth is round etc and many more things. (The word
> 'Sine' as
> > > in Sine Theta etc is derived from the Sanskrit word Jaib. The West
> > > acknowledge that).
> > >
> > > But the vital question, during all this long history of Indian
> > > mathematics, Indians are having a tough time trying to find any solid
> (I
> > > mean SOLID) record who and when invented the ZERO and when India first
> > > started using the Zero as a number and a numeral. Many also suspect
> that
> > > India probably borrowed the idea of Zero from the Babylonians who also
> had
> > > invented a zero long before India. (In fact the Maya also had invented
> a
> > > zero). Only ground India has when Bhramagupta started using the zero
> as a
> > > number in his Algebra. But now we are talking of *6th or 7th century
> AD*.
> > > The West recognize Bharhmagupta also. In spite all this, the West now
> > > acknowledge the fact that India invented the Zero without going into
> too
> > > much arguments.
> > >
> > > Thus we see that India has some solid ground and some watery. Against
> this
> > > type of background, some Indians are now trying to proof that India is
> the
> > > originators of everything. That is the problem which West or anybody
> else do
> > > not like to accept.
> > > Hope you get the picture.
> > > I would like to see netters comments on these.
> > > Barua
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com>
> > > *To:* barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>
> > > *Cc:* umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu ; assam at assamnet.org
> > > *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2007 3:33 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Assam] Indian reality versus Western mythology
> > >
> > >
> > > Barua,
> > >
> > > Just couldn't resist not butting in.
> > >
> > > Without going into the existence of Krishna, Shiva or Jesus :)here is
> a
> > > site about Ancient Math in India. Also let us not forget Aryabhatta
> > > (Math) and Kautilya(Politics & Governance).
> > >
> > > http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Indexes/Indians.html
> > >
> > > (BTW: the site is from a UK University and NOT something conjured up
> in
> > > India:)
> > >
> > > --Ram
> > >
> > > On 8/10/07, barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  When I say FACTS AND FIGURES, I was talking not about our religious
> > > > heroes, but about Science and Mathametics.
> > > > Say for instance, what India did in case of Mathematics and when?
> > > > Can you produce any written evidence that India invented the Zero
> and
> > > > when? It is difficult.
> > > >
> > > > I donot like to deal with mythical figures like Shiva, Krishna etc.
> I
> > > > consider these Indian gods to be purely mythical figures transformed
> from
> > > > some original tribal religious cults. In my opinion, Shiva was
> orginally a
> > > > local god in the Harappa civilization and Krishna was a Dravidian
> local
> > > > tribal god. This much history tells. Do you have any other evidence
> to
> > > > counter that , not who believes what?
> > > > Rajen da
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> > > >  *To:* Rajen & Ajanta Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> ;
> > > > umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu ; assam at assamnet.org
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2007 1:33 PM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Assam] Indian reality versus Western mythology
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rajen-da,
> > > >
> > > > Good to get your response. Now about facts - would you not agree
> that
> > > > most Hindus hail Krishna as one of the Hindu heroes and believe that
> he
> > > > lived in India thousands of years back --- I wanted to put that on
> Wikipedia
> > > > page of Krishna - and they asked for facts --  what do you expect me
> to do?
> > > > I believe wiki is a good example of people over the globe trying to
> have
> > > > "sameness" - even here there is bias.
> > > >
> > > > Second, on Jesus's wiki page I added a comment that many Indians
> believe
> > > > that Jesus came to learn his skills in India (and I added a BBC
> report on
> > > > that with weblink) and that was deleted - saying this is no research
> > > > evidence -- for Indian news on Indian  culture even an obscure
> reference
> > > > (with no weblink) in any newspaer article in remote India is
> considered okay
> > > > by its editors -- incidently for Jesus they have stopped anyone from
> editing
> > > > the page. Anyone is free to write anything about Krshna , Ram etc --
> thats
> > > > free for all.
> > > >
> > > > whats that to do with facts? Thats plain bias.
> > > >
> > > > Umesh
> > > >
> > > > *Rajen & Ajanta Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com >* wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Umesh:
> > > > What you are saying is right.
> > > > The West has a Eurocentric view of the world. They claim that the
> basic
> > > > foundation of the Western Civilization, especially on science, is
> mainly
> > > > based on Greek civilization. They even donot like to give proper
> credit to
> > > > the Indian and Chinese contribution in mathetics and other science.
> I would
> > > > say, the West is still in the Dark Age. However, they have a point.
> Indians
> > > > basically donot have any record of what they did. If you want to
> counter the
> > > > present Eurocentric view, the best (and only way) is to debate will
> SOLID
> > > > facts and figures and not with rhetoric.
> > > > If you have any specific issue, I would be glad to discus.
> > > > Rajenda
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > *From:* umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com>
> > > > *To:* assam at assamnet.org
> > > > *Sent:* Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:04 PM
> > > > *Subject:* [Assam] Indian reality versus Western mythology
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Some days back a student of Indian origin born and raised in US was
> > > > surprised to learn that India had a glorious history - he hardly
> believed me
> > > > though.
> > > >
> > > >   And it did not surprise me since I have come to realize that every
> > > > civilization wants to promote itself as the best - Greek and Roman
> > > > civilization are promoted as ideals (closely followed by Egyptian
> one) --
> > > > Indian and Chinese ones are lesser ones.
> > > >
> > > > Greek Toga costume parties are common features of Western univs just
> > > > like Indian kurta, dhoti are picking up in Indian college fashion
> shows.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > However, the problem is that Western historians/scholars of non
> Western
> > > > spheres call themselves (and each other) as the world's
> foremost/only
> > > > reliable experts on their chosen area of expertise - namely hows and
> whys of
> > > > other civilization. Most believe (I believe) that those in
> non-western
> > > > world/developing world are too
> naive/unscientific/non-modern/non-rational to
> > > > understand and appreciate the distinction between good and bad; and
> right
> > > > and wrong.
> > > >
> > > > I believe a lay westerner is more tolerant of others' views than
> these
> > > > experts (whose reputation and even careers depend on promoting what
> they
> > > > have always held as true).
> > > >
> > > > I just created a wikipedia page called Hindu Reality -speaking
> against
> > > > this tendency (I'm sure someone will come along and remove my
> arguments).
> > > >
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_reality  - I just checked
> --someone
> > > > has deleted the page itself.
> > > >
> > > > Wiki seems to be about might is right -
> > > >
> > > > Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > Umesh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Umesh Sharma
> > > >
> > > > Washington D.C.
> > > >
> > > > 1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
> > > >
> > > > Ed.M. - International Education Policy
> > > > Harvard Graduate School of Education,
> > > > Harvard University,
> > > > Class of 2005
> > > >
> > > > http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
> > > >
> > > > http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
> > > > ------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Umesh Sharma
> > > >
> > > > Washington D.C.
> > > >
> > > > 1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
> > > >
> > > > Ed.M. - International Education Policy
> > > > Harvard Graduate School of Education,
> > > > Harvard University,
> > > > Class of 2005
> > > >
> > > > http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
> > > >
> > > > http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > Too much spam? Try Yahoo! Mail
> > > > <
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