[Assam] From Outlook India
Krishnendu Chakraborty
krish_gau at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 16:01:19 PST 2009
Selective reading is what I can say. Let me point to a few areas of the article--
His assertion that Door Darshan does not broadcast any serial of Muslim or Christian characters is blatantly incorrect. (AND so is his assertion that GOI does not allow to sell eggs OR that Army cantonments has ONLY Hindu temples, OR Govt funds are distributed only to temples and so on).
Does he cry foul when government-sponsored iftars are hosted? Or when Eid Milad-un-Nabi gets declared a national holiday by VP Singh? What about the Indo-Islamic Culture course that is a requirement at 10+2 level at Aligarh Muslim University?
whether it is biased in favour of Sikhs but it is hardly a case of the Indian state favouring Hindus and discriminating against Muslims, the basic premise of Dr. Khalidi’s essay. (AND Dr Khalidi tried to even bring up Sikh minority to show that India is not secular).
Just as Dr. Khalidi can quote selective examples to prove India is not a secular state but predisposed towards Hinduism, other selective examples can be used to "prove" that indeed India is not a secular state but one predisposed towards Islam. This just goes to show that the reality lies somewhere in between. (The author has shown such examples in the begining of the article. And I agree to author-- it is equidistant from all religion).
And BTW, we are yet to see any response to my comments in response to your posting of original article ... and if I remember , there was a gentleman's agreement -- no bashing :)
--- On Fri, 2/13/09, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
From: Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Assam] From Outlook India
To: krish_gau at yahoo.com, "A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from around the world" <assam at assamnet.org>
Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 5:46 PM
All the arguments proffered by the author in this alternative view dwells on:
Will be
Could be
Should be
Possible
So on and so forth.
Not one argument is presented on WHY or HOW the Indian state IS or
can be called a SECULAR state, as a rebuttal to the premise of
Khalidi's contention. Only that it could be.
Of course it could be. Question is why is it NOT? And who will make
it so? The 13% of the minority or the 87% of the majority? Is the
Hindu majority about to play dead and accept a secular Indian state?
To have an answer to it , one only needs to look at the state of
affairs, the news of the day, everyday.
At 12:58 PM -0800 2/13/09, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
>A different view ... from same Outlook India
>
>http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090206&fname=mohib&sid=1
>
>--- On Fri, 1/30/09, Krishnendu Chakraborty <krish_gau at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>From: Krishnendu Chakraborty <krish_gau at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Assam] From Outlook India
>To: "A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from around the
>world" <assam at assamnet.org>, "Chan Mahanta"
<cmahanta at charter.net>
>Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 3:08 PM
>
>> Can you all justify promoting a particular religious ethos
>> by people
>> in your government ? Is it a good idea?
>
>No it is not. But the point, as we have explained, is Govt is NOT any
>particular religion. For example, as we see funding is there for temple
and
>mosque alike , contrary to what the author says. We can go point by point
and
>will see that for every aparently Hindu promotion, there is a promotion for
>largest minority community at least.
>I just remembered, another of authors claim that Indian Text books always
>refers to Hinduism .... I remember reading 'Idgah' by Premchand in
our
>Hindi class. There are MANY other instances where Indian text books
>talk about
>Guru Govind Singh, about Maulana Abul Kalam etc. not to speak of stories
>revolving around Muslim or Sikh communities.
>
>
>> Finally, to cite examples of religiously symbolic gestures
>> in the
>> part of high govt. officials in developed and stable
>> democracies
>> with functioning institutions of state keeping watch as
>> the same as
>> the situation in India merely reflects your living in
>> denial and
>
>And why exactly ? Why do you have no objection to Christmas party or
holiday
>OR to pray to God in US Anthem but have an apathy to Vande Mataram?
>
>
>> >in such huge numbers, coexisting in relative peace and
>> harmony for
>> >such a long time.
>>
>> *** Really ? I think you have qualified to re-write the
>> subcontinental history Ram :-).
>
>Seriously, show another country with such a huge minority population with
a
>better harmony. Irrespective of the communal riots, you will fail to show
>another example.
>
>
>
>
>>Not a reflection of mature and
>>
>> intelligent people looking at the issue objectively.
>
>
>I thought we decided NOT to go bashing on this discussion . Or was I wrong
:)
>
>
>
>--- On Fri, 1/30/09, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Assam] From Outlook India
>> To: "A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from around
the
>world" <assam at assamnet.org>, krish_gau at yahoo.com
>> Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 2:54 PM
>> AS usual, Ram, you and your fellow travellers on this topic
>> are
>> missing the point.
>>
>> Your personal experiences or your outlooks towards people
>> of faiths
>> other than your own, enlightened and inclusive, is NOT the
>> problem
>> here. If you were to represent the broad realities of
>> India, then
> > the question about the problems of religious influences in
>> public
>> life, governance to be precise, wouldn't be of concern.
>>
>> Can you all justify promoting a particular religious ethos
>> by people
>> in your government ? Is it a good idea?
>>
>> If it is not a good idea, then how can you justify or
>> condone the
>> actions of those who are doing exactly that, right this
> > moment, all
>> over India, to various degrees in various positions ? Or
>> are you
>> going to dispute that?
>>
>> Finally, to cite examples of religiously symbolic gestures
>> in the
>> part of high govt. officials in developed and stable
>> democracies
>> with functioning institutions of state keeping watch as
>> the same as
>> the situation in India merely reflects your living in
>> denial and
>> demonstrates your inability to look at the realities for
>> what they
>> are.
>>
>> And I must say that the degree of defensiveness you all
>> display,
>> really, is very amusing :-). Not a reflection of mature and
>>
>> intelligent people looking at the issue objectively.
>>
>>
>> >in such huge numbers, coexisting in relative peace and
>> harmony for
>> >such a long time.
>>
>> *** Really ? I think you have qualified to re-write the
>> subcontinental history Ram :-).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 11:51 AM -0600 1/30/09, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>> >Excellent points KC.
>> >
>> >This article like so many others provide regular,
>> adultrated fodder for a
>> >section of India haters.
>> >
>> >Most of the article is baseless and can probably be
>> "proven" with an exampe
>> >here and an example there. Using these, the author
>> takes liberties by making
>> >sweeping statements.
>> >
>> >Most people in India are aware of
>> >
>> >Hindu/Muslim family/marriage laws
>> >
>> >Hindus temples are governed by Temple Boards
>> >Mosques by Wafq Boards
>> >(And as far as I know - both are highly corrupt)
>> >
>> >It is surprising some people buy into this stuff and
>> are virtually unable to
>> >separate the wheat from the chaff.
>> >And all this because of an unrelenting visceral hatred
>> for anything India
>> >clouds their otherwise razor-sharp analytical
>> abilities.:)
>> >
>> >BTW: the meaning of 'secularism' in India is
>> nuanced because of the
>> >centuries old relationship between the 2 main religions
>> - Hinduism and
>> >Islam. Which other country can actually boast of 2 such
>> communities, in such
>> >huge numbers, coexisting in relative peace and harmony
>> for such a long time.
>> >
>> >See other examples - Middle East,
>> Bosnia-Herzegovina/Serbia , Eastern
>> >Eurpose, even France.
>> >
>> >I wonder what the author will think of the Muslim
>> ghettos of France - you
>> >know the cradle of modern liberalism, secularism, and
>> democracy? We all
>> >know about the others.
>> >
>> >--Ram
>> >
>> >
>> >On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Krishnendu
>> Chakraborty <
>> >krish_gau at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> It will take some time to read through, research
>> and comment on the whole
>> >> article. But here is a quick set of comments.
>> >>
>> >> The author says that cantonments do not have
>> places of worship other then
>> >> temple. Anyone who visited Narangi cantonment
>> knows it is incorrect --
>> >> there is a temple, church, mosque, gurudwra all
>> in the same campus. I had
>> >> the fortune of visiting a few other cantonments
>> accross India and it is same
>> >> every where.
>> >>
>> >> The AIR starting its day with Vande Mataram --
>> Now Vande Mataram is the
>> >> National Song. It may be argued that it is idol
>> worship (though it is not
>> >> -- it is worshipping Mother Land) and so should
>> not be National Song. But
>> >> the national anthem of both UK and US prays to
>> God and Not to Allah Or Ram
>> >> ... is it against secularism
>> >>
>> >> It is also factually incorrect that school
>> children are not allowed to
>> >> bring food of their choice. From personal
>> experience, my firends used to
>> >> bring even beef , not to speak of other stuff.
>> > >
>> >> Serving Jhatka's in Army mess --- I do not
>> know for sure if there are no
>> >> option. I also do not know if such options are
>> available in armed forces of
> > >> other secular countries. But in US, I have never
>> seen Halal being served in
>> >> any public function -- be it office lunch
>> meeting, picnic or community
>> >> functions. The muslims thus go for veg. Again,
>> is it against secularism
>> > > ? You will argue that the percentage of Muslims
>> in US is far less compared
>> >> to percentage of Muslims in India. But do
>> remember, the author did not talk
> > >> about Muslims only ... but other groups like
>> Parsi whose percent in India is
>> >> pretty low.
>> >>
>> >> eggs not being sold in public -- anybody who has
>> ever stayed in India, even
>> >> for a brief period of time , knows this is totaly
>> false.
>> >>
>> >> The author started saying that India privileges
>> Hinduism and then admitted
>> >> that there are special act for Muslim marriage?
>> He has cleverly avoided the
>> >> Muslim law (and who asked for it?) Ideally ,
>> there should be a single law
>> >> ... but it is mainly Muslims who oppose a common
>> law?
>> >>
>> >> The author laments at Govt funding Temples. But
>> Churches do receive fund in
>> >> US and that does not make US any less secular.
>> Further, just the way
>> >> temples receive fund, mosques too get fund from
>> govt.
>> >>
>> >> Anti Conversion -- the anti conversion
>> legislation says that conversion
>> >> under coerce or bribe is illegal. Now that I
>> believe is fair. Without that
>> >> protection, you would have seen many more riots
>> with people forcing to
>> >> convert others ... the way it happened when
>> Pakistan was created.
>> >>
>> >> The author laments at Govt's attempt to
>> 'reform' Hinduism, allowing people
>> >> of all caste access to places of public worship.
>> So what does he suggest?
>> >> That Hinduism should continue to be dominated by
>> Brahmins the way Mullas
>> >> are domnicating Islam promoroting polygamy and
>> other vices ?
>> >>
>> >> In a country where the minorities form a sizable
>> population, which has a
>> >> history of getting bifurcated on religious line,
>> government cannot just
>> >> remain aloof from religion.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >>In that, a Chief of Staff taking to
>> chanting Hindu scriptures or for that
>> >> matter any such scripture is not only
>> hypocritical but lays bare the
>> >> propaganda associated with that secularism in the
>> armed forces.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> pls read this -
>> >>
>> http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2005/7-9/28-31_army.shtml
>> >>
>> >> dont worry 'ITS LIKE THIS ONLEE" and it
>> will STAY like this
>> >> there is plenty of respect for minorities in
>> armed forces ....
>> >> Have you been to any army cant in India or have
>> spend days there with
>> >> army families and observed their social
>> interactions ...in 80s i was
>> >> fortunate enuf to study few years in a army cant
>> school ..it was one of my
>> >> best exp so far ....mixing with kids from all
>> parts of the country ,
>> >> participate in sports, cultural and religious
>> festivals ( yes eid ,X-mas
>> >> included) ....i still cherish those days ....
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *************************
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:38:30 -0600>
>> To: c_pathak at hotmail.com;
>> >> assam at assamnet.org> From: cmahanta at
>> charter.net> Subject: Re: [Assam]
>> >> From Outlook> > Good to hear from you
>> Chitta. Hope life is treating you well
>> >> out > there down under.> > The article
>> is contextual in view of the much
>> >> hyped Indian secularism > , more as a means to
>> differentiate itself from the
>> >> religious Islamic > countries in the eyes of
>> the West, than from a
>> >> commitment to it as > an essential approach in
>> governing a country as
>> >> religiously diverse > as it is and the myriads
>> of conflicts generated by
>> >> such religious > diversity.> > India
>> spares no effort to promote its armed
>> >> forces as a model of > professionalism and
>> secularism. In that, a Chief of
>> >> Staff taking to > chanting Hindu scriptures or
>> for that matter any such
>> >> scripture is > not only hypocritical but lays
>> bare the propaganda associated
>> >> with > that secularism in the armed
> > forces.> > One of the problems that keep
>> >> repeating
>> >> itself in this >
>> secular/pseudo-secular/religious debate is what I call
>> >> 'this damned > English language'
>> problem. The concept of secularism in
>> > > public life > is a western concept and the
>> word secular has a clear meaning
>> >> well > defined in the English language. It
>> means not having anything to do >
>> >> with religion. But Indians have altered its
> > meaning to fit their own >
>> >> political needs. With that the Indian discourse
>> on secularism ( in > public
>> >> life that is) has been turned on its head and a
>> cogent > discussion is no
>> > > longer possible in this particular medium.>
>> > I am sure you will
>> >agree, that
>> >> if we keep the threshold low enough > anything
>> can be presented as looking
>> >> good. The comparison with > Pakistan to hold
>> the bizarre condition called
>> >> Indian secularism as > something superior is
>> such a presentation. The fact
>> >> that secularism > is an essential tool in
>> building a less conflicted,
>> >> pluralistic > society , focused on building
>> good and fair governance is
>> >> entirely > lost in the semantic
>> aberrations.> > The contradictions you
>> >> cite or the writer did are not inimical to >
>> building that less-conflicted,
>> >> pluralistic society where everyone has > a
>> fair stake. But to cite it as a
>> >> proof of Indian-secularism ( as > opposed to
>> real secularism) misses the
>> >> point .> > Bottom line is that IF India is
>> committed to building that >
>> >> pluralistic , inclusive nation it needs REAL
>> secularism and not a > moment
>> >> too soon. But it cannot even come close, if its
>> intelligentsia > is busy
>> >> re-defining its meaning and is satisfied giving
>> lip-service > to it, like it
>> >> has been all these decades. And worst of all are
>> those > otherwise perfectly
>> >> able and intelligent Indians who are reduced to
>> > mocking the politicians
>> >> for blatantly exploiting religion in the >
>> guise of secularism with the
>> >> 'pseudo-secular' epithet, while unable
>> > to say IF they would support real
>> >> secularism ; leaving the question > open about
>> whether a HINDU RELIGIOUS
>> >> Indian state, is the ANSWER!> > But anyone
>> with a nominally curious mind
>> >> could see right thru the > ploy, don't you
>> think?> > That is what a kharkhow
>> >> would call "uka pothaarot luka-bhaku
>> khela" ( > play-acting hide-and-seek in
>> >> an open field).> > How much more unreal can
>> one get?> > > > > > > > At 4:17
>> >> AM +0000 1/30/09, chittaranjan paTHAK wrote:>
>> >Greetings Mahanta da,>
>> >> >Thanks for forwarding the article and
>> soliciting people's view. Most >
>> >> >(may be 100%) of the things the author has
>> said in the article may > >be
>> >> factually correct. In real (ideal) sense, India
>> may not be > >secular.> >But
>> >> then when 70-80% are Hindus, there will be many
>> times/instances > >when
>> >> other communities will feel "left out".
>> The ceremonies will > >loose their
>> >> appeal if they are carried out in a very
>> artificial "not > >offending
>> >> anyone" style. General Roy Chaudhury is
>> better off > >chanting few sanskrit
>> >> slokas than some Quoranic verses as there more
>> > >chances in creating
>> >> disturbances while trying to be politically >
>> >correct and secular.> >I
>> >> see India as secular country not because it is
>> written some where > >in
>> >> books but because the way the country and its
>> people have acted > >in last
>> >> 60 years. There have been abberations, but >
>> >still despite being a product
>> >> of two state theory Indian machinery > >has
>> not created any big osmotic
>> >> pressure to purge out/vent Muslims > >to
>> Pakistan which was created as a
>> >> homeland for Indian Muslims. That > >is a
>> big tick for the state. Is not it?
>> >> And as far as the article is > >concerned,
>> the author and his admirers
>> >> should know that there > >are many hundreds
>> of counter articles which try to
>> >> prove that India > >is not secular and it
>> appeases minority religions.> >I
>> >> see it as a matter of perspective and find it
> > very difficult to > >dub it
>> >> secular/nonsecular/pseudosecular/hindu country as
>> there are > >so many
>> >> contradictions (like the ons pointed out by the
>> author) and > >surprises
>> >> (Krishnajanam bhumi and a mosque separated by a
>> single > >brick wall).>
>> >> >Its the people more than Government/govt
>> agencies who can help India >
>> >> >maintain its own brand of seculiarism.>
>> >Regards> >> >Chitta > >> >>
> > >Make
>> >> the most of what you can do on your PC and the
>> Web, just the > >way you
>> > > want.
>> <http://www.get.live.com/wl/all>Windows Live>
>> >>
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