[Assam] poem and news : The true story about encounters with Maoist in West Bengal

[Ram Sarangapani]

C'da,

>**** That is not a believable argument. It is a poor  attempt at damage
control :-).

This is related to what was written about how long one would have to wait
for India to become mature......

My remark was if some people could wait indefinitely for the ULFA to come
through, EVEN though they know pretty well that the ULFA would not be able
to deliver on its promises, why couldn't they also wait for a mature Indian
democracy?

Why are they ready to wait forever something so nebulous, but are more than
willing to jump the gun in other cases?

>You, of all people, ought to know that it is not about you, it is not about
me, it is not about one individual or the other.

I totally agree.

>The fact remains that there ARE issues in Assam, that the ULFA ignited that
have not yet extinguished and it is likely they
>will continue to remain long after ULFA may be gone, unless they are
addressed and resolved.

C'da, we all know that these issues existed long before the ULFA ever came
into existence. For those issues to be highlighted
and to be brought into focus, there needn't have been a killing spree.

And in any case,'bringing Assam's issues to light' wasn't ULFA's aim to
begin with.
Their sole aim, for a long time was (and probably still is) to separate from
India.
Today, it looks like the ULFA will,  after all,  settle for a consolation
prize, and will be hailed as long lost heroes, and red carpets rolled out.

Yes, many in Assam do feel slighted, step-mothered, etc, but few want to
separate from India. And that is a BIG difference.

--Ram




On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com> wrote:

> >The point I was making is that there are/were some people (its supporters)
>
>>
>> who are still waiting for them to deliver even after 30 years. I wish them
>> well, but I'm not holding my breath.
>>
>
>
> **** That is not a believable argument. It is a poor  attempt at damage
> control :-).
>
> But I will not dwell on that.
>
> So let me ask you THIS: Will taunting those who you believe are hoping for
> ULFA to deliver
> change anything?
>
> You, of all people, ought to know that it is not about you, it is not about
> me, it is
> not about one individual or the other. The fact remains that there ARE
> issues
> in Assam, that the ULFA ignited that have not yet extinguished and it is
> likely they
> will continue to remain long after ULFA may be gone, unless they are
> addressed and
> resolved.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
>  C'da,
>>
>>  *** You are taunting ULFA's inability to deliver, but conveniently
>>> leaving
>>>
>> out the glaring fact that not only did ULFA never have had
>>
>>>  power, but had been hounded by the second largest standing  army of
>>>
>> the world.
>>
>> No, I'm not taunting the ULFA. Most people know the ULFA cannot deliver
>> any
>> of its promises, specially going against the second largest standing army
>> in
>> the world. Most people also knew that ULFA was not in control of India.
>>
>> The point I was making is that there are/were some people (its supporters)
>> who are still waiting for them to deliver even after 30 years. I wish them
>> well, but I'm not holding my breath.
>>
>>  I am sure you read Wasbir's article in the Sentinel yesterday which
>>>
>> clearly says why.
>>
>> I sure did, nice column. There were parts I liked.
>>
>> --Ram
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Ram:
>>>
>>> We can go on and on making absurd arguments like:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is this a difficult concept - some people in Assam have been waiting
>>>
>>>> more than 30 years for the ULFA to deliver something, anything, anything
>>>> at
>>>> all. I guess, it will to be like 'Waiting for Godot' :-) :-).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> But it leads to nothing other than, perhaps attempts at asserting one's
>>> own
>>> sense
>>> of false righteousness.
>>>
>>> Let me explain, using your first retort above:
>>>
>>>      *** You are taunting ULFA's inability to deliver, but conveniently
>>>      leaving out the glaring fact that not only did ULFA never have had
>>>      power, but had been hounded by the second largest standing
>>>      army of the world.
>>>
>>>      Never mind the the other convenient attempt at obfuscation: That in
>>> spite
>>>      of the inability to deliver, ULFA's vision has NOT left the psyche
>>> of
>>>      Assam's people. I am sure you read Wasbir's article in the Sentinel
>>> yesterday
>>>      which clearly says why.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now then is yours an honest attempt at a serious discourse, or
>>> is it just an unseemly attempt at passing propaganda as a
>>> an informed debate over opposing views? You tell us!
>>>
>>>
>>> c-da
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 25, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh C'da,
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** So the unsaid implication therefore is that, until such time as
>>>>
>>>>> India's
>>>>>
>>>>>  demokrasy matures, those who are exploited, those who are not
>>>>
>>>>> beneficiaries
>>>>>
>>>> of the fake-democracy that rules India, ought to shut up, take their
>>>> lumps
>>>> or go away some place else.
>>>>
>>>> Why is this a difficult concept - some people in Assam have been waiting
>>>> more than 30 years for the ULFA to deliver something, anything, anything
>>>> at
>>>> all. I guess, it will to be like 'Waiting for Godot' :-) :-).
>>>>
>>>> BUT this is not about unsaid implications or reading between the lines.
>>>>
>>>> If the lot of the Indian masses, their governance,etc need improvement,
>>>> then
>>>> don't you agree that creating havoc,
>>>> bombing rail communications, killing people, and putting innocent in
>>>> harm's
>>>> way does not add any benefit to the same masses that these terror groups
>>>> say
>>>> they are protecting?
>>>>
>>>> What is this? Just because India has many people who are being
>>>> exploited,
>>>> we
>>>> should route for these Naxals and ULFA types who actually make the
>>>> situation
>>>> worse. I just don't get the logic here.
>>>>
>>>> Now, if there are groups out there, who, in spite of all these problems
>>>> that
>>>> India faces, makes a positive, incremental change for the exploited, all
>>>> kuods to them. In fact, there are many such groups in India who are
>>>> currently improving the lives of everyday people.
>>>>
>>>> Of course all the good Indians  are very sympathetic of their plight,
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  ...............
>>>>
>>>> Some are, while others are not. That really ought not to be the litmus
>>>> test
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> There are some realities - ultra groups, in their very essence exist
>>>> because
>>>> they use violence as a means to an end. And quite often, the brunt of
>>>> their
>>>> actions is borne by the very people they claim to protect, and release
>>>> them
>>>> from some tyrannical government.
>>>>
>>>> A very good example, really stares at us. The ULFA, for the last 30 odd
>>>> years has set the state back many decades, and without one iota of
>>>> benefit.
>>>> Thousands of people have been killed (whether by ULFA or by the Indian
>>>> forces). And all this for what?
>>>> If the Ulfa or any of the other ultra groups NEVER started this in the
>>>> first
>>>> place, these things would have never happened.
>>>>
>>>> The same thing with these Commies. Communists can never take over India.
>>>> Indians have already tasted democracy, and they are not going to give
>>>> that
>>>> up easily.
>>>> Its a big joke, even the so called Communists in states like West Bengal
>>>> and
>>>> Kerala swear by democratic principles.
>>>>
>>>> Heck, even Marxist-Lenninists swear by democratic principles these days.
>>>> Their ultimate goal is to a have a 'Leftist Umah" in India. (you heard
>>>> it
>>>> here first - where Umah means "world'). They try to rise up in the ranks
>>>> through violence, and then want to embrace democratic ideals.
>>>>
>>>> In the mean-time, why don't the all these good hearted, democracy loving
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Indians not raise their voices in fixing the broken Indian system?
>>>>
>>>> Oh but that would be fuel for justifying those who are intent on
>>>>
>>>>> destroying
>>>>>
>>>>>  India with their commie designs. Who needs that?
>>>>
>>>> They do, you just hear them (or want to hear them):-)
>>>>
>>>> In reality though, however bad & broken the system in India is, it is
>>>> still
>>>> far better than what the Commies and the ultra groups promise the
>>>> masses.
>>>> I
>>>> think, even the leaders are of these groups are well aware of this, but
>>>> just
>>>> want to keep the myth afloat, so they can dupe a section of another
>>>> generation of Indians.
>>>>
>>>> --Ram
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are problems, specially in a country like India, and it takes
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  time, and a nation and her people often needs to mature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *** So the unsaid implication therefore is that, until such time as
>>>>> India's
>>>>> demokrasy matures, those who are exploited, those who are not
>>>>> beneficiaries
>>>>> of
>>>>> the fake-democracy that rules India, ought to shut up, take their lumps
>>>>> or
>>>>> go away
>>>>> some place else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course all the good Indians  are very sympathetic of their plight,
>>>>> and
>>>>> never fail
>>>>> to express their regrets over it. After all they are normal people with
>>>>> humanistic
>>>>> ideals, not just the selectively humanistic ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah sure they tell you that you live only one life. But that is an
>>>>> un-Indian concept.
>>>>> They can definitely bank on the certainty that they would  be better
>>>>> off
>>>>> in
>>>>> their next
>>>>> incarnation.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the mean-time, why don't the all these good hearted, democracy
>>>>> loving
>>>>> Indians
>>>>> not raise their voices in fixing the broken Indian system?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh but that would be fuel for justifying those who are intent on
>>>>> destroying
>>>>> India
>>>>> with their commie designs. Who needs that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Uttam,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Could anyone use/ incite Rameswars if they were otherwise comfortable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Could you hatch chicken from stones?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The argument could have been valid, IF Rameshwar's life was
>>>>>> improved.
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> if the actions of these 'saviours' (Naxals or for that matter ULFA)
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> the situation worse, and in many cases causing death/injury to the
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> people they purport to be saving. With friends like these Naxals or
>>>>>> ULFA
>>>>>> (for the Rameshwars of the world), who needs enemies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, why do you have to think that Naxals and Maoists would be like
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indira, the dictator?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right!. IG was elected, and then became a dictator (at least during
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> emergency), and these groups, use violence as a means to achieving
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> Communist agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, I was wrong, actually the Communists would be worse than Indira.
>>>>>> IG
>>>>>> gave up her PM seat after she lost the election. There was at least a
>>>>>> hint
>>>>>> of democracy in her. She could have just stated she wasn't giving up
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> throne, and most people who matter in India would have been singing
>>>>>> praises
>>>>>> and writing poems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you think, once the Naxals get a hold of power, they are going to
>>>>>> give
>>>>>> up that easily. They get their power thru violence, and what makes you
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> they would NOT use violence again to hold on to it? This is the same
>>>>>> argument that goes against the likes of ULFA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Chinese Communists have become good capitalists, even lending the
>>>>>> US
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> money albeit to make the bubble burst?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't know where this fits in? BUT Lending money to the US - yes,
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> USD holdings. The US has been giving the Chinese MFN (Most Favored
>>>>>> Nation)
>>>>>> status to export goods/services for a long time. The US market is
>>>>>> flooded
>>>>>> with Chinese made goods. The MFN is one of the most coveted awards the
>>>>>> US
>>>>>> dishes out. That alone, it can be argued, can catapult a country like
>>>>>> China
>>>>>> into prominence and an economic power - and today, they are EVEN in a
>>>>>> position to help the US.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Maoist Prachanda (who raged a armed rebellion) has given up on
>>>>>> arms
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even to let others rule
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> even when his is the single largest party, in conformity with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> democratic
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> norms, not usually followed by our BJPs/ Congresses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know this person. But what on earth is a Maoist doing
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> Democratic norms? So, from this example, we ought to just let let
>>>>>> violence
>>>>>> these groups perpetrate go unabated - hoping (against hope) that they
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> give up arms, let others rule, and even follow democracy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C'mon Uttam... does this really make sense? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pray, why this prejudice, the knee-jerk reaction? The days of
>>>>>> iron/bamboo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> curtains are quite over.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not really. Look at some history. Through numerous trials and errors,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> world has generally accepted democracy as a true and tested form of
>>>>>> governance. There are a few different forms of democracy (the British
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> US
>>>>>> systems differ, and so does Japan), but in general, most countries
>>>>>> follow
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> system close as possible to democracy.
>>>>>> Yes, there are problems, specially in a country like India, and it
>>>>>> takes
>>>>>> time, and a nation and her people often needs to mature. India's
>>>>>> experience
>>>>>> with democracy is only 60 odd years - compared to the Brits and the
>>>>>> US.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as those other systems go - those have been successful, only if
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> thinks that the people in China, Vietnam and Cuba are a free people
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> independent thought and action? Otherwise, they are total failures.
>>>>>> As for these ultra groups, their goals, methods, and promises, the
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> said, the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If any of the other isms you cite were that good, the world over
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> would have been embracing them. Those systems can be enforced only by
>>>>>> force.
>>>>>> Do we want that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Naxals/ Maoists may turn out to be good democrats, who knows? Else
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> will lose the fight,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> due to lack of people's support; if they are wrong PC does not even
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> raise a finger. They will
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> crumble due to their own foibles that you so clearly find in them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I don't where we are headed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Naxals/Maoists are perpetrating all this violence, so that they can
>>>>>> establish a good Democracy? You are kidding, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't they just become 'democrats' to start with :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Ram da
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 4:49 AM, UTTAM BORTHAKUR <
>>>>>> uttamborthakur at yahoo.co.in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Ram Da,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could anyone use/ incite Rameswars if they were otherwise
>>>>>>> comfortable?
>>>>>>> Could you hatch chicken from stones?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, why do you have to think that Naxals and Maoists would be
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> Indira, the dictator?
>>>>>>> The Chinese Communists have become good capitalists, even lending the
>>>>>>> US
>>>>>>> money albeit to
>>>>>>> make the bubble burst?
>>>>>>> The Euro communists are not demonic the way you paint the communists.
>>>>>>> Our CPM is quite docile; even supports the UPA.
>>>>>>> The Maoist Prachanda (who raged a armed rebellion) has given up on
>>>>>>> arms
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> to let others rule
>>>>>>> even when his is the single largest party, in conformity with
>>>>>>> democratic
>>>>>>> norms,
>>>>>>> not usually followed by our BJPs/ Congresses.
>>>>>>> Pray, why this prejudice, the knee-jerk reaction? The days of
>>>>>>> iron/bamboo
>>>>>>> curtains are quite over.
>>>>>>> The Naxals/ Maoists may turn out to be good democrats, who knows?
>>>>>>> Else
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> will lose the fight,
>>>>>>> due to lack of people's support; if they are wrong PC does not even
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> raise a finger. They will
>>>>>>> crumble due to their own foibles that you so clearly find in them.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> assam at assamnet.org
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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