[Assam] Missionaries: the good, the bad, and the ugly - Ramdas Lamb, Washington Post
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at gmail.com
Sun May 2 19:01:18 PDT 2010
Ram:
I know I don't always get it. But even I know enough not to take pot-
shots at the
postal van, the messenger. However, if the driver of that van, takes a
position
and I see something amiss in it, I might challenge that. It is NOT
attempting to kill
the messenger .
Besides, what I wrote was meant to be worn only by those whose feet
fit :-).
> I wrote this:
>>>> Could these people just be pretending and have secretly not
>>>> converted
> from their religion at birth? Do religions
>>>>> seriously want such people? It all seems so superficial.
*** The superficiality you cite here is YOUR perception. It is NOT
based on
any study of those who converted.
But you did not hide your contempt for those who convert and you
showed no
respect for the choices of others based on your prejudices, and not on
facts,
whatever they may be.
Here I must revisit the claim of Hindu intellectuals that Hinduism is
NOT a religion.
And if so, the question of CONVERSION does not arise at all, does it?
>There has to be some kind of
> influence (good or bad) that would make one change or question their
> first
> faith.
*** Well? So what? We do a lot of things reacting to various needs or
influences.
Many of us left the countries of our birth, something MOST people
don't do, and
emigrated to a far-off land, under some influence or need or other.
That is how life is.
>As I said, whatever you and I may feel, the facts are, friends like
the good
> Reverend is affected.
*** Tell us something we don't know :-). But is it right, is it fair,
for the good rev. to be
adversely affected by the false or erroneous perceptions of those you
quote?
Should we, as informed and able people , not challenge such aberrant
views
or false perceptions ? And if we don't, who will?
c-da
On May 2, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> You are not trying to kill the messenger, are you, C'da? :-)
>
>> *** So be it, as LONG AS the progeny have no complaints about
>> carrying on
>> the tradition. That is a freedom of choice. It becomes an ISSUE
>> when one
> cites
>> it to challenge or demonize CONVERSION.
>
> I wrote this:
>>>> Could these people just be pretending and have secretly not
>>>> converted
> from their religion at birth? Do religions
>>>>> seriously want such people? It all seems so superficial.
>
> This is quite commonplace for people to follow the religion of their
> parents. Very few actually change on their own. There has to be some
> kind of
> influence (good or bad) that would make one change or question their
> first
> faith.
>
> I am not citing anything - just stating facts..
>
>
>> Just because the idea is project by some as an explanation for
>> seeking
> independence etc. , it is merely a ploy to DEFLECT >attention away
> from the
> REAL CAUSES, which many prefer not to see, hear or talk about, due
> to the
>> unchangeable nature of Indian conditions.......
>
> As I said, whatever you and I may feel, the facts are, friends like
> the good
> Reverend is affected. It does not matter whether he actually does it
> or not,
> he is still affected.
>
> --Ram
>
>> *** So be it, as LONG AS the progeny have no complaints about
>> carrying on
>> the tradition. That is a freedom of choice. It becomes an ISSUE
>> when one
> cites
>> it to challenge or demonize CONVERSION.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> People accepting and
>>
>>>
>>> following the religion of parents is the number one cause why people
>>> belong
>>> to that particular religion.
>>>
>>
>>
>> *** So be it, as LONG AS the progeny have no complaints about
>> carrying on
>> the tradition. That is a freedom of choice. It becomes an ISSUE
>> when one
>> cites
>> it to challenge or demonize CONVERSION.
>>
>> That is the difference.
>>
>>
>>
>> In fact, this is also the reason for people speaking their 'Mother
>>> tongue' or belong to one country or another.
>>>
>>
>> *** Apples vs. oranges. No parallels here.
>>
>>
>>
>>> but there is notion
>>
>>> afloat in the NE and its effects are real.
>>>
>>
>> *** Just because the idea is project by some as an explanation for
>> seeking
>> independence etc. , it is merely a ploy to DEFLECT attention away
>> from the
>> REAL
>> CAUSES, which many prefer not to see, hear or talk about, due to the
>> unchangeable nature of Indian conditions. The Nagas or the Mizos
>> did not seek independence merely because of their conversion to
>> Christianity.
>> Nor did the converters do so to incite them to insurgencies. But if
>> education
>> and information brought to them by the missionaries OPENED THEIR EYES
>> to seek better treatment, failing which leading to the quest for
>> independence, then
>> it is NOT the fault of them villainous missionaries. It is the
>> fault of
>> THOSE
>> who held them under control, denying them their fundamental human
>> rights
>> and
>> freedoms.
>>
>> That simple.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>
>> C'da,
>>>
>>>
>>> Could these people just be pretending and have
>>>> secretly not converted from their religion at birth?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *** How can there be a "--religion at birth". Is religion a
>>> genetically
>>>>
>>> imprinted trait? Is it an intellectually tenable
>>>
>>>> proposition? The notion is the same as basis of the caste system
>>>> passed
>>>> on
>>>>
>>> generation to generation, unshakable, and
>>>
>>>> should be equally reprehensible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hehehe.... You are just trying to split hairs here. Why are you
>>> surprised
>>> at
>>> this reality? That is how it is, and has been for ever.
>>>
>>> *** How can there be a "--religion at birth". Is religion a
>>> genetically
>>>>
>>> imprinted trait?
>>>
>>> It is very nearly a genetically imprinted trait. People accepting
>>> and
>>> following the religion of parents is the number one cause why people
>>> belong
>>> to that particular religion. And yes, as reprehensible as this is,
>>> it jus
>>> very similar to the caste system - passed on from one generation
>>> to the
>>> next. In fact, this is also the reason for people speaking their
>>> 'Mother
>>> tongue' or belong to one country or another.
>>>
>>> Heck someone like me could easily convert into another religion,
>>> given the
>>>>
>>> right sum, and without batting an eyelid :-).
>>>
>>> *** By all means. But that does NOT make everybody else equally
>>> cynical or
>>>>
>>> opportunistic.
>>>
>>> Hehehe! was just speaking for myself. Others are welcome to the
>>> club :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> but their goal is to convert just enough to start violent
>>> rebellions such
>>>> as in
>>>> Northeast India and destabilize the unity of India. " - from one
>>>> of the
>>>> comments
>>>>
>>>> *** What is the VALUE of this comment? Does it have any basis?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know this comment from the article may not have value, but there
>>> is
>>> notion
>>> afloat in the NE and its effects are real. In fact, one of my
>>> Christian
>>> friend (who is a Reverend at Guwahati) also mentioned this to me. He
>>> mentioned how his charity is often held to such suspicions. Though
>>> you and
>>> I
>>> may think there is no basis - it is very real for the reverend.
>>>
>>> --Ram
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> But, I am guilty, my question to him wasn't sincere. What kind of
>>>> people
>>>>
>>>>> would convert back and forth?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** Perhaps the re-converters of Dangs would explain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could these people just be pretending and have
>>>>
>>>>> secretly not converted from their religion at birth?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *** How can there be a "--religion at birth".
>>>> Is religion a genetically imprinted trait? Is it an intellectually
>>>> tenable
>>>> proposition? The notion is the same as basis of the caste system
>>>> passed on generation to generation, unshakable, and
>>>> should be equally reprehensible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do religions seriously
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> want such people? It all seems so superficial.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** If I had to play the Devil's advocate, I would counter: How
>>>> does one
>>>> know if the converted do not BELIEVE? So the skepticism in this
>>>> case is a
>>>> product
>>>> of the eye of the beholder and does not necessarily have any
>>>> intrinsic
>>>> value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Heck someone like me could easily convert into another religion,
>>>> given
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> right sum, and without batting an eyelid :-).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** By all means. But that does NOT make everybody else equally
>>>> cynical
>>>> or opportunistic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Although nowadays most Christian proselytizers have renounced such
>>>>
>>>>> violence, groups like the Manmasi National Christian Army in
>>>>> Assam,
>>>>> India,
>>>>> continue to use threats to force
>>>>> conversion." - Ramdas Lamb
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *** How does Rev. Lamb explain how conversion under duress
>>>> sticks? What
>>>> is
>>>> to prevent one from renouncing the forced faith as soon as the
>>>> threat or
>>>> force
>>>> is gone or reduced? The only way it can be explained is by
>>>> invoking the
>>>> know-nothing concept of "jaat--moraa". Like eating beef or
>>>> marrying a
>>>> non-Hindu
>>>> condemns certain Hindus of having forfeited their Hinduttwa.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> but their
>>>>
>>>>> goal is to convert just enough to start violent rebellions such
>>>>> as in
>>>>> Northeast India and destabilize the unity of India. " - from one
>>>>> of the
>>>>> comments
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *** What is the VALUE of this comment? Does it have any basis?
>>>>
>>>> Finally, my question is this:
>>>>
>>>> Hindus, when intellectually challenged with the question of what
>>>> their
>>>> religion
>>>> means to them, counter that Hinduism is NOT a RELIGION, citing
>>>> one of its
>>>> brightest intellects, Radhakrishnan and others, that it is a way
>>>> of
>>>> life,
>>>> whatever that
>>>> might mean ( a culture?).
>>>>
>>>> If that has to be taken seriously, then how can CONVERSION of
>>>> someone
>>>> without a religion ( being born into a Hindu culture that IS not a
>>>> religion)
>>>> be an affront to the HIndu?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This column is from the Washington Post, March this year. The
>>>> topic is
>>>>
>>>>> like
>>>>> a lightening rod, and attracts a lot of attention both within
>>>>> India and
>>>>> outside.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Rajastani friend of mine based at Guwahati brought up this
>>>>> topic of
>>>>> conversion this past year. He, of course, is convinced that
>>>>> conversion
>>>>> goes
>>>>> on the all the time in the NE. My question to him was, if it was
>>>>> just
>>>>> 'charity and helping' that helps in converting poor or caste
>>>>> Hindus to
>>>>> Christianity, then why don't Hindus also do the same to keep
>>>>> them from
>>>>> being
>>>>> converted. He acknowledged that Hindu philanthropic groups had
>>>>> been slow
>>>>> on
>>>>> the take and now many such groups (even at Guwahati) are doing
>>>>> this &
>>>>> quite
>>>>> successfully..
>>>>>
>>>>> But, I am guilty, my question to him wasn't sincere. What kind
>>>>> of people
>>>>> would convert back and forth? Could these people just be
>>>>> pretending and
>>>>> have
>>>>> secretly not converted from their religion at birth? Do religions
>>>>> seriously
>>>>> want such people? It all seems so superficial.
>>>>>
>>>>> Heck someone like me could easily convert into another religion,
>>>>> given
>>>>> the
>>>>> right sum, and without batting an eyelid :-).
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> There are some interesting observations in the column. Here are
>>>>> a few:
>>>>>
>>>>> "No matter how well intentioned, any attempts to push a
>>>>> religious belief
>>>>> or
>>>>> denomination on someone ultimately benefits no one and demeans the
>>>>> religion
>>>>> in the process. If missionaries actually have something of
>>>>> genuine worth
>>>>> and
>>>>> value, why do they need to seduce, coerce, or threaten people to
>>>>> get
>>>>> them
>>>>> to
>>>>> accept it? " - Ramdas Lamb
>>>>>
>>>>> "Although nowadays most Christian proselytizers have renounced
>>>>> such
>>>>> violence, groups like the Manmasi National Christian Army in
>>>>> Assam,
>>>>> India,
>>>>> continue to use threats to force
>>>>> conversion." - Ramdas Lamb
>>>>>
>>>>> "There are many dangerous cults and Jesus Jihadi organizations out
>>>>> there,
>>>>> they will never be able to convert the vast majority of Hindus,
>>>>> but
>>>>> their
>>>>> goal is to convert just enough to start violent rebellions such
>>>>> as in
>>>>> Northeast India and destabilize the unity of India. " - from one
>>>>> of the
>>>>> comments
>>>>>
>>>>> ___
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GUEST VOICES: Franklin
>>>>> Graham<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/04/every_day_a_national_day_of_prayer.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: national day of
>>>>> prayer]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/04/every_day_a_national_day_of_prayer.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prayer is nonpartisan<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/04/every_day_a_national_day_of_prayer.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On National Day of Prayer, let's put aside our political
>>>>> differences.
>>>>> *VIDEO:* Graham on
>>>>> Islam<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2010/04/22/VI2010042204233.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> *Susan Jacoby:* Atheism's political
>>>>> divide<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/spirited_atheist/2010/04/atheists_irreligiously_united_politically_divided.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Sue Thistlethwaite:* In Ariz., suspect thy
>>>>> neighbor<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2010/04/suspect_the_neighbor.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Feisal Abdul Rauf:* Sudan's democratic
>>>>> potential<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/feisal_abdul_rauf/2010/04/sudans_democratic_potential.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> [image: Ramdas Lamb]
>>>>> Ex-Hindu monk, professor
>>>>> Ramdas Lamb<
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hindu monk in India from 1969-1978. Professor, University of
>>>>> Hawai’i,
>>>>> world
>>>>> religions and contemporary American religion.
>>>>> *ALL POSTS*<
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** <http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/
>>>>>> Missionaries:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the good, the bad, and the ugly
>>>>>
>>>>> *Q: Is there a problem with proselytism overseas by U.S. religious
>>>>> groups?
>>>>> Isn't sharing one's faith part of religious freedom? When does
>>>>> it cross
>>>>> the
>>>>> line into manipulation and coercion?*
>>>>>
>>>>> Missionary proselytization has been an integral part of the two
>>>>> main
>>>>> prophetic religions, Christianity and Islam, since early on in the
>>>>> formation
>>>>> of each. It is precisely the reason they are the two largest
>>>>> religions
>>>>> in
>>>>> the world. It is also one of the darkest and most sinister
>>>>> aspects of
>>>>> religion and one of the main reasons so many people have a
>>>>> negative view
>>>>> of
>>>>> anything to do with religion. The basis and justification for
>>>>> proselytization is an extremely narrow minded and arrogant
>>>>> assumption:
>>>>> "My
>>>>> religion is the only right one, I have the only truth, all other
>>>>> religions
>>>>> are wrong, and it is my duty to get others to think and believe
>>>>> like
>>>>> me."
>>>>> This belief has been used by Christians and Muslims for more
>>>>> than a
>>>>> millennium to justify the seduction, coercion, torture, and even
>>>>> murder
>>>>> of
>>>>> countless individuals in trying to get them to convert.
>>>>>
>>>>> This does not mean that missionaries as a group have not done
>>>>> many good
>>>>> things for people over the millennia, and some continue to have
>>>>> positive
>>>>> impacts in the lives of the poor and needy. Examples of this can
>>>>> be seen
>>>>> currently in both Haiti and Chile. However, the negative actions
>>>>> of
>>>>> those
>>>>> who focus is proselytization far outweigh the positive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Religion is simultaneously one of the best as well as one of the
>>>>> most
>>>>> destructive of human creations. Religions have inspired people
>>>>> like
>>>>> Mother
>>>>> Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King to selflessly serve
>>>>> others
>>>>> and work to make the world a better place. Religions have also
>>>>> given
>>>>> rise
>>>>> to
>>>>> an ideology of hatred and have provided justification for the
>>>>> kinds of
>>>>> evils
>>>>> perpetuated by the likes of Aurangzeb, Hitler, and bin Laden.
>>>>>
>>>>> Proselytizers are fundamentalists whose ideology divides the
>>>>> world into
>>>>> "believers" and "non-believers." The latter comprise all those
>>>>> who are
>>>>> different, those perceived as the "other." One of the biggest
>>>>> difficulties
>>>>> that we face in this world is our distrust of others, a feeling
>>>>> that
>>>>> leads
>>>>> to fear, hate, and violence. In his 1991 documentary entitled
>>>>> "Beyond
>>>>> Hate,"
>>>>> Bill Moyers addresses concepts such as "insider and outsider,"
>>>>> "us and
>>>>> other," etc. and the pivotal role this bifurcated view plays in
>>>>> justifying
>>>>> hatred and violence. Proselytizers thrive on these distinctions,
>>>>> these
>>>>> divisions, drawing sharp lines between their own beliefs and
>>>>> those of
>>>>> everyone else. Non-believers are seen as lesser, sometimes even
>>>>> as evil,
>>>>> and
>>>>> clearly in need to either being changed or, in the extreme,
>>>>> annihilated.
>>>>>
>>>>> More wars have been fought because of narrow religious doctrine
>>>>> and
>>>>> beliefs
>>>>> than for any other reason, and Christians and Muslims have been
>>>>> at the
>>>>> forefront. Both their histories are punctuated with wars against
>>>>> people
>>>>> of
>>>>> other religions, and the paths they have followed are riddled
>>>>> with the
>>>>> bodies of millions of innocent victims. One of the more extreme
>>>>> examples
>>>>> is
>>>>> the case of Timur, the 14th-century Muslim conqueror. In
>>>>> December, 1398,
>>>>> he
>>>>> overthrow the reigning Muslim ruler in Delhi. His justification
>>>>> was that
>>>>> the
>>>>> ruling dynasty was too tolerant of Hindus and did not convert
>>>>> them.
>>>>> Timur
>>>>> happily recounts in his memoirs that in the process of taking
>>>>> over, his
>>>>> army
>>>>> slaughtered 100,000 Hindus in a single day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Forced conversions continue, as is evident by events in
>>>>> countries like
>>>>> Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Egypt. Even in the Gaza
>>>>> strip, two
>>>>> western newsman were recently forced to convert at gunpoint.
>>>>> Just last
>>>>> week,
>>>>> two young Sikh men were kidnapped and
>>>>> beheaded<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Taliban-kill-2-Sikhs-send-heads-to-Pak-gurdwara/articleshow/5601006.cms
>>>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> members of the Taliban in Pakistan for refusing to convert to
>>>>> Islam.
>>>>> While such actions clearly do not represent the vast majority of
>>>>> Muslims,
>>>>> they have been condoned and even justified by fundamentalist
>>>>> Muslim
>>>>> leaders,
>>>>> and very few Muslims speak out in opposition, often out of fear. A
>>>>> recent
>>>>> and welcome exception is Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri, an influential
>>>>> Pakistani
>>>>> Muslim
>>>>> scholar, who just released a 600-page *fatwa* (religious edict)
>>>>> condemning
>>>>> Muslim terrorism and suicide bombings. Although it is a powerful
>>>>> and
>>>>> needed
>>>>> statement, it is a rarity, and Dr. ul-Qadri has unfortunately
>>>>> put his
>>>>> own
>>>>> life in danger in the process. Fundamentalists, irrespective of
>>>>> their
>>>>> chosen
>>>>> ideology, find disagreement difficult to allow, and violence has
>>>>> increasingly become a common reaction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Christian missionaries in the past were not much better. In
>>>>> addition to
>>>>> the
>>>>> violence in the name of Christianity that was perpetuated during
>>>>> the
>>>>> Crusades and the Inquisitions, a look at the early proselytization
>>>>> efforts
>>>>> in India, the Americas, and the Pacific makes it clear that many
>>>>> missionaries found relatively easy justification for the torture
>>>>> and
>>>>> execution of those who refused to become Christian or who
>>>>> challenged
>>>>> their
>>>>> beliefs. Although nowadays most Christian proselytizers have
>>>>> renounced
>>>>> such
>>>>> violence, groups like the Manmasi National Christian Army in
>>>>> Assam,
>>>>> India,
>>>>> continue to use threats to force conversion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most European and American Christian missionaries during the
>>>>> last two
>>>>> centuries in Asia have found offers of food, work, education,
>>>>> and health
>>>>> care to be better methods for gaining converts. In the late 1700s,
>>>>> missionaries followed on the heels of the British East India
>>>>> Company and
>>>>> began a concerted effort to take over the Indian soul. Once the
>>>>> British
>>>>> government took control the country, proselytizers had a
>>>>> relatively free
>>>>> reign to pursue their objectives. Again, some missionaries did
>>>>> good
>>>>> works,
>>>>> but those focused on proselytization showed little actual
>>>>> concern for
>>>>> the
>>>>> well being of those they sought to convert.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many Hindus had hoped that Indian Independence would help
>>>>> curtail the
>>>>> more
>>>>> underhanded activities of the missionaries, but this did not
>>>>> happen.
>>>>> Less
>>>>> than a decade after Independence, a government study conducted in
>>>>> central
>>>>> India known as the Niyogi
>>>>> Report<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyogi_Committee_Report_on_Christian_Missionary_Activities
>>>>>> brought
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> to light many of the underhanded and cynical methods that
>>>>> Christian
>>>>> missionaries were continuing to use. The Indian government did
>>>>> little
>>>>> about
>>>>> it, and as a consequence, many of the same tactics remain
>>>>> prevalent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, Americans donate millions of dollars annually to
>>>>> Christian
>>>>> organizations that advertise charity work they do around the
>>>>> world.
>>>>> While
>>>>> it
>>>>> is true that some organizations do help many people, the
>>>>> assistance of
>>>>> many
>>>>> such groups comes with a price for the people being helped. That
>>>>> is
>>>>> because
>>>>> the real focus of most missionaries is on their proselytization
>>>>> efforts,
>>>>> for
>>>>> which a significant portion of the money is used. Far too often,
>>>>> their
>>>>> activities have absolutely nothing to do with spirituality or real
>>>>> charity,
>>>>> and everything to do with getting names and numbers of converts,
>>>>> so the
>>>>> missionaries can go back to their funding agencies and
>>>>> supporters and
>>>>> ask
>>>>> for continued finances for their claimed "successes."
>>>>>
>>>>> In India, missionaries tell their supporters in the U.S. that they
>>>>> provide
>>>>> free or inexpensive services to the needy. However, once initial
>>>>> assistance
>>>>> is given, then conditions are often added for subsequent help.
>>>>> If free
>>>>> education is provided, conversion may then be a requirement for
>>>>> its
>>>>> continuance past a certain point. If aid is in the form of
>>>>> health care,
>>>>> then
>>>>> the quality of care or type of medicine and treatment available
>>>>> may be
>>>>> determined by one's willingness to convert. This becomes a
>>>>> serious and
>>>>> difficult issue for parents who bring a sick or injured child to a
>>>>> missionary hospital. They may be told that the necessary care is
>>>>> only
>>>>> given
>>>>> to Christians, or that the required medicines "will only work" on
>>>>> Christians. For those who do convert in order to receive needed
>>>>> care,
>>>>> they
>>>>> may well be pressured to then convert other family members or
>>>>> else lose
>>>>> whatever aid they are receiving. I have seen families torn apart
>>>>> by such
>>>>> missionary activities in Central India where I conduct research.
>>>>> Again,
>>>>> this
>>>>> is not what all missionaries do, but these are fairly common
>>>>> occurrences.
>>>>>
>>>>> In early 2009, Pope Benedict XVI met the Chief Rabbinate of
>>>>> Israel and
>>>>> agreed to stop all conversion attempts directed at Jews. A month
>>>>> later,
>>>>> Cardinal Jean-Louis Pierre Tauran, president of Vatican's
>>>>> Pontifical
>>>>> Council
>>>>> for Inter-religious Dialogue, visited India and was asked while
>>>>> there if
>>>>> he
>>>>> would offer Hindus the same respect. He refused. There is a
>>>>> degree to
>>>>> narrow
>>>>> mindedness in every religious tradition, but when that is
>>>>> coupled with
>>>>> fundamentalist arrogance and powerful backing, nothing good can
>>>>> come
>>>>> from
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> In his "Seeds of Contemplation," the late Catholic Trappist monk
>>>>> and
>>>>> mystic
>>>>> Thomas Merton warns about those with spiritual pride who think of
>>>>> themselves
>>>>> as having the truth and humility while others do not, who think
>>>>> they are
>>>>> suffering for God's sake but deep inside are becoming full of
>>>>> pride in
>>>>> their
>>>>> supposed sanctity, who think that everyone else must adhere to
>>>>> their
>>>>> truth.
>>>>> Merton writes that when such an individual thinks that "he is
>>>>> messenger
>>>>> of
>>>>> God or a man with a mission to reform the world. . . He is
>>>>> capable of
>>>>> destroying religion and making the name of God odious to men."
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a strong supporter of freedom of religion. Most
>>>>> proselytizers are
>>>>> not.
>>>>> They want the freedom to coerce vulnerable and gullible
>>>>> individuals into
>>>>> converting, and they can justify many nefarious methods to
>>>>> accomplish
>>>>> their
>>>>> goal. No matter how well intentioned, any attempts to push a
>>>>> religious
>>>>> belief or denomination on someone ultimately benefits no one and
>>>>> demeans
>>>>> the
>>>>> religion in the process. If missionaries actually have something
>>>>> of
>>>>> genuine
>>>>> worth and value, why do they need to seduce, coerce, or threaten
>>>>> people
>>>>> to
>>>>> get them to accept it? Maybe their methods suggest that what
>>>>> they have
>>>>> to
>>>>> offer is not that worthwhile.
>>>>>
>>>>> By Ramdas Lamb | March 4, 2010; 3:41 AM ET Save & Share:
>>>>> [image: Send
>>>>> E-mail]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/emailalink?sent=no&link=http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html&title=Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image:
>>>>> Facebook]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html&t=Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Twitter]<javascript:%20goTwitter('Missionaries:%20the%20good,
>>>>> %20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly',%20'
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
>>>>> '
>>>>> )>
>>>>> [image:
>>>>> Digg]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html&title=Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image:
>>>>> Yahoo Buzz]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzz?publisherurn=washington_po284&guid=washington_po284:http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image:
>>>>> Del.icio.us <http://del.icio.us/> <http://del.icio.us/>]<
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://del.icio.us/post?url=http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html;&title=Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20-%20On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog
>>>>> ;>
>>>>> [image:
>>>>> StumbleUpon]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image:
>>>>> Technorati]<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://technorati.com/search/http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Previous: In Haiti: First
>>>>> contact<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/mark_driscoll/2010/03/in_haiti_first_contact.html
>>>>>> |
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Next: The
>>>>> Church and the Sex
>>>>> Question<
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/brian_d_mclaren/2010/03/the_church_and_the_sex_question.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments
>>>>>
>>>>> Please report offensive comments below.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Darn, my religion sucks and everyone is quitting and eroding my
>>>>> power,
>>>>> it
>>>>> must be cheating for other religions to steal my minions."
>>>>>
>>>>> No not really, Hinduism has been around for 5000 years, I have
>>>>> no doubt
>>>>> we
>>>>> will be around for the next 5000. Infact Christianity
>>>>> foundations are
>>>>> actually very weak today especially in Europe.
>>>>> There are many dangerous cults and Jesus Jihadi organizations
>>>>> out there,
>>>>> they will never be able to convert the vast majority of Hindus,
>>>>> but
>>>>> their
>>>>> goal is to convert just enough to start violent rebellions such
>>>>> as in
>>>>> Northeast India and destabilize the unity of India. Christianity
>>>>> and
>>>>> Islam
>>>>> has historically spread through force, so their is virtually no
>>>>> chance
>>>>> of
>>>>> them succeeding everywhere in India unless they launch a
>>>>> traditional
>>>>> medieval crusade.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: siyer79 | March 15, 2010 9:22 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20siyer79%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204824931&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4824931%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Darn, my religion sucks and everyone is quitting and eroding my
>>>>> power,
>>>>> it
>>>>> must be cheating for other religions to steal my minions."
>>>>>
>>>>> No not really, Hinduism has been around for 5000 years, I have
>>>>> no doubt
>>>>> we
>>>>> will be around for the next 5000. Infact Christianity
>>>>> foundations are
>>>>> actually very weak today especially in Europe.
>>>>> There are many dangerous cults and Jesus Jihadi organizations
>>>>> out there,
>>>>> they will never be able to convert the vast majority of Hindus,
>>>>> but
>>>>> their
>>>>> goal is to convert just enough to start violent rebellions such
>>>>> as in
>>>>> Northeast India and destabilize the unity of India. Christianity
>>>>> and
>>>>> Islam
>>>>> has historically spread through force, so their is virtually no
>>>>> chance
>>>>> of
>>>>> them succeeding everywhere in India unless they launch a
>>>>> traditional
>>>>> medieval crusade.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: siyer79 | March 15, 2010 9:21 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20siyer79%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204824930&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4824930%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like sour grapes to me. "Darn, my religion sucks and
>>>>> everyone is
>>>>> quitting and eroding my power, it must be cheating for other
>>>>> religions
>>>>> to
>>>>> steal my minions."
>>>>>
>>>>> Please... if people don't want to be in your religion, too bad
>>>>> for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the people get bribes (which make their lives better like free
>>>>> education,
>>>>> etc.) and then join a new church. Sounds like a big win for the
>>>>> guy who
>>>>> got
>>>>> bribed. After all, he can always quit and join another church.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: ZZim | March 9, 2010 11:03 AM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20ZZim%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204823736&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4823736%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the Indian, Muslim emperor Aurangzeb, the Indian
>>>>> journalist
>>>>> Amulya
>>>>> Ganguli has said, "that most bigoted of all Mughal emperors, had
>>>>> once
>>>>> written to his underlings: ". . . information has reached our
>>>>> noble and
>>>>> most
>>>>> holy court that certain persons interfere and harass the Hindu
>>>>> residents
>>>>> of
>>>>> the town of Benaras and its neighbourhood and the Brahman
>>>>> keepers of the
>>>>> temples... Therefore, our royal command is that, after the
>>>>> arrival of
>>>>> this
>>>>> lustrous order, you should direct that, in future, no person
>>>>> shall in
>>>>> unlawful way interfere and disturb the Brahmans and other Hindu
>>>>> residents
>>>>> at
>>>>> these places, so that they may, as before, remain in their
>>>>> occupation
>>>>> and
>>>>> continue with peace of mind to offer prayers for the continuance
>>>>> of our
>>>>> god-gifted empire, so that it may last forever."
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: twforg | March 7, 2010 6:33 AM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20twforg%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204823296&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4823296%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bin Laden was our guy till it became convenient to blame him for
>>>>> 9/11.
>>>>> If
>>>>> you still believe that version of 9/11, then you haven't done your
>>>>> research.
>>>>> See http://www.twf.org/911.html and if you wish to debate this I'm
>>>>> available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Enver Masud
>>>>> Founder, The Wisdom Fund
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: twforg | March 6, 2010 7:58 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20twforg%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204823260&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4823260%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are so many things to object to in this article, it would
>>>>> take a
>>>>> week
>>>>> to do them all.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Hindu violence against Christians in India, especially in
>>>>> the state
>>>>> if
>>>>> Orissa (sp), has been recent. It occurred, in part, because
>>>>> upper-cast
>>>>> hindus want to protect their power and they stir up lower-cast
>>>>> Hindus
>>>>> (who
>>>>> convert to Islam and Christianity in party because it's a way
>>>>> out for
>>>>> them)
>>>>> to kill Christians because they accepted "bribes" (education,
>>>>> healthcare,
>>>>> etc.) to convert -- whether that was the reason or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> The secularists, spreading their own "religions" (Communism,
>>>>> Naziism,
>>>>> Facism, etc.) have actually killed for more people than
>>>>> religionists
>>>>> have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other types of religion do prosyletise, and that is why they
>>>>> have spread
>>>>> so
>>>>> much as well (Bhuddism comes immediately to mind -- and of course
>>>>> secularism).
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, those who have railed against Christian
>>>>> prosyletising in
>>>>> this
>>>>> and related articles (especially if they are U.S. Christians)are
>>>>> also
>>>>> the
>>>>> ones who howl the most if we don't "prosyletise," i.e., if we do
>>>>> not
>>>>> speak
>>>>> or act against the evil in other societies (as well as our own).
>>>>> It's a
>>>>> "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm inclined to think that those who rail against prosyletising
>>>>> (religious
>>>>> or political) and accusing others of arrogance, hatred, etc.,
>>>>> should
>>>>> look
>>>>> in
>>>>> the mirror.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: madoradataman | March 6, 2010 5:06 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20madoradataman%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204823202&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4823202%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Truly well-written. Congratulations for highlighting a serious
>>>>> problem
>>>>> in
>>>>> many countries across this world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: Filibuster | March 5, 2010 10:39 AM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20Filibuster%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822909&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822909%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PROSELYTIZATION is a manifestation of the SUPREMACIST foundation
>>>>> of
>>>>> Christianity & Islam.
>>>>>
>>>>> No one else has this serious flaw that Christians and Muslims
>>>>> have in
>>>>> their
>>>>> "religions" or spiritual systems. Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs,
>>>>> Zoroastrians,
>>>>> Jews, Wiccans, Animists, etc.. are all trying to make themselves
>>>>> better,
>>>>> not
>>>>> trying to undermine others.
>>>>> Conversion has caused some of the biggest problems in third world
>>>>> countries.
>>>>> The "charity" and "kind deeds" are insincere and deceptive
>>>>> actions, and
>>>>> therefore, are acts of evil.
>>>>>
>>>>> Muslims & Christians don't seem to get the basics of goodness and
>>>>> spirituality. Pretending to be good while having and ulterior
>>>>> motive
>>>>> fools
>>>>> no one and is an act of evil. This can lead to crusades and
>>>>> suicide
>>>>> terrorism.
>>>>> REMEMBER: Almost all religious conflicts in the world involve
>>>>> Muslims or
>>>>> Christians on one side or both.
>>>>> Sneakiness, deception, conversion, undermining other cultures,
>>>>> etc... is
>>>>> offensive and nonspiritual.
>>>>>
>>>>> You really feel the urge to do charity? Go to the inner city in
>>>>> America
>>>>> and
>>>>> help those in need. Look in your own family and help those who are
>>>>> depressed
>>>>> or drunk or angry.
>>>>> Stop going to 3rd world countries and causing problems & hurting
>>>>> others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: clearthinking1 | March 5, 2010 4:43 AM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20clearthinking1%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822838&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822838%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading this rather unbalanced diatribe on the evils of
>>>>> proselytizing,
>>>>> I am left to think that Lamb is engaging in a bit of
>>>>> proselytizing as
>>>>> well.
>>>>> He sounds like someone who hates Christians and Muslims.
>>>>>
>>>>> He overgeneralizes and oversimplifies a topic that is far too
>>>>> complex
>>>>> for
>>>>> him to condense into a few "sound bites" for this article.
>>>>>
>>>>> He often likes to portray Hindus as victims of the nefarious
>>>>> ways of the
>>>>> two
>>>>> religions he despises. But if you look through the annals of
>>>>> history,
>>>>> you'll
>>>>> see cases of Hindus persecuting both Muslims and Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: imterpsfan2 | March 4, 2010 10:49 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20imterpsfan2%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822795&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822795%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Excellent article. Very well thought out and touches on very
>>>>> serious
>>>>> points.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: WilliamHood | March 4, 2010 7:26 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20WilliamHood%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822764&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822764%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not just a fine philosophical essay but a commentary that provides
>>>>> concrete
>>>>> evidence of the ways and methods of proselytizers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: tarle_subba | March 4, 2010 6:34 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20tarle_subba%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822747&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822747%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Magnificent writing and expose of these narrow-minded bigots who
>>>>> are
>>>>> masquerading as "men of God" and then engaging in relentless
>>>>> cheating,
>>>>> coercion, violence and deception.
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted by: Nparry | March 4, 2010 5:13 PM
>>>>> Report Offensive
>>>>> Comment<
>>>>>
>>>>> onfaith at washingtonpost.com?subject=On%20Faith%20Panelists%20Blog%20%20%7C%20%20Nparry%20%20%7C%20%20Missionaries:%20the%20good,%20the%20bad,%20and%20the%20ugly%20%20%7C%20%204822718&body=%0D%0D%0D%0D%0D================%0D?__mode=view%26_type=comment%26id=4822718%26blog_id=618
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> assam mailing list
>>>>> assam at assamnet.org
>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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