[Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"

Thu Jul 26 13:49:21 PDT 2012

I stopped right about here:

"My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently transpiring here."

No, please, allow me to be clear: I think its time you stop over analyzing everything, to include "unsubstantiated thoughts", remove yourself from the Internet for a while, and if manageable, your head from your ass. 

Lest, allow me to bow in the presence of such overwhelming superiority, or at least the overcompensation of such.

Newsflash: You and your responses are the reason trolls exist. You are the reason trolls troll. Oppress the opinions of those rightfully and freely entitled to do so, while demeaning them in the process. Yes, that sounds like an incredibly productive venue for a collection of researchers, regardless of their experience. Im surprised youve managed to succeed with such greatness.

Im willing to wager that youve discouraged much more discussion and productivity on this list than youve enabled.

I could have a field day with the frail logic and "unsubstantiated thoughts" within your own email. I suggest you take a mulligan, but opt not to reapproach.

Thanks.

Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies
http://about.me/othertomjones

Syracuse University
Hinds Hall
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu

ischool.syr.edu

THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
campaign.syr.edu

________________________________________
From: Terri Senft [tsenft at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:13 PM
To: Thomas Jones
Cc: Michael Scarce; Air-L at listserv.aoir.org
Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"

Thomas,

 Let me try to be crystal clear, here: my objection to the autism
language in the trolling thread has nothing to do protecting people
from hurt feelings, being the "PC police," or whatever you'd like to
toss next my way.

My problem , and continues to be, the sloppy thinking currently
transpiring here. This thread on trolling began in good faith, with
references asked for and received. Somewhere along the line, it
devolved into armchair pathologizing. I'm sorry you feel our analysis
as "scathing" but not every thought that is cool on Facebook or Quora
or Usenet or OKCupid should fly here unsupported.

To your earlier question regarding CMC (do people still say that?) and
"internet autism syndrome." Regardless of what Jason Calcanis or
anyone else from the Silicon Valley Reporter opines, "internet autism"
is NOT a syndrome, or even a disorder, in any sense of hard or social
science I know. There is no documentation to demonstrate it is,
outside of "I once knew a guy" stories.

Frankly,  from where I sit, it doesn't look to be much more than a
catch-phrase for "behavior that seems anti-social and freaks me out,
because I don't operate like that." In this way, it's not unlike
"internet voyeurism," or  "internet exhibitionism" --two other phrases
I've dealt with at length in my publications, some of which take on
Josh Harris, the individual Calcanis cites as his single data point
for "internet autism syndrome."

Here's the thing: Just likenot every person who uses a webcam is an
exhibitionist, and not every person who trolls has autism, or
autism-like behavior patterns, or might know someone autistic, etc.
Use another word, like douchebag, and I'm okay. Just leave words by
which other people identity (or are identified by medical or legal
authorities) Mental health issues are  complicated enough without us
playing fast and loose with the terminology.

Finally ,and for people who do better with analogies, here's one that
replaces a mental health issue with a race/nationality issue. Imagine
a hypothetical conversation that goes like this:

Poster A:  "Internet scamming is complex. Anybody know any literature
that takes this issue on?"

Poster B: "Yeah, you might look at article X, or Y, or book Z..."

(other great suggestions from other folks follow)

Person C: "I have some thoughts on scams off the top of my head...

(insert some thoughts, which poster admits aren't fully-formed yet,  here)

Person D: "You know something I've been thinking about? How lots of
scammers are from Nigeria..."

Person E: "Well , maybe not exactly Nigeria, but West Africa for sure..."

Person F: "You could even say it's a syndrome: Nigerian Internet
Syndrome. The more Nigerians get on the internet, the more scamming
there is, and the more 'regular' people get on the internet, and they
act like Nigerians..."

Person G: "Well, more like West Africans..."

_________________________________________

Person X: WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF??????

Person H: Hey, be cool. We're just throwing ideas around. And besides,
it's okay for me to talk like this, because I was West African once,
and boy did I do some scamming.

Of course, then I grew out of it.

Regards,
Terri

.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02 at syr.edu> wrote:
>
> Well, now that we have made the leap from casual conversation to a scathing analytic review, lets at least take the time to make a productive conversation out of it.
>
> Given that this is the Association of Internet Researchers, I assume that CMC is familiar to most.
>
> That being said, I'm going to [safely] assume that neither of the two previous respondents have heard of what Jason Calcanis coined as "Internet Asperger's Syndrome"? While it is still an ongoing, vibrant discussion of diverse perspectives, its underlying premise is certainly feasible.
>
> This should get you started:
> http://calacanis.com/2009/01/29/we-live-in-public-and-the-end-of-empathy/
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59a_1247115195
>
> Oddly, even referenced in an alleged FBI profile of Anonymous leaders, its validity in question as obvious in the article, as seen on ARS Technica:
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/bisexual-money-grubber-with-aspergers-how-to-troll-anonymous/
>
> To categorically reject ideas or commentary because of personal offense is antithetical to the purpose of research, but further the identity of researchers. It also requires, at times, much less bravado than recently displayed.
>
> I used to troll internet forums and email lists constantly (though not to the 4chan level); I was the very identity (granted, one of many) of the subject at hand here. Also, my psychologist qualitatively aligned me closely, but not exactly with Asperger's which, in her words, I "grew out of". Additionally, Ive also taught Tae Kwon Do for more than 20 years, and as a result, have had large a large influx of children variably diagnosed with autism. Doctors were recommending activities such as Tae Kwon Do as treatment for the further development of those with Autism. In fact there is one Master (in NY I believe) who has dedicated her entire school to it. I am no expert, but I do have personal experience on several sides of this issue. Dismissing that would be rather unfortunate.
>
> In the future, lets take more time to welcome thoughts that differ from our prejudice, rather than reject them because of it.
>
>
> Thomas Jones | Graduate Student | School of Information Studies
> http://about.me/othertomjones
>
> Syracuse University
> Hinds Hall
> Syracuse, New York 13244
> t 919.809.9454 e tajone02syr.edu
>
> ischool.syr.edu
>
> THE CAMPAIGN FOR SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
> campaign.syr.edu
>
> ________________________________________
> From: air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org [air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org] on behalf of Terri Senft [tsenft at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:12 PM
> To: Michael Scarce
> Cc: Air-L at listserv.aoir.org
> Subject: Re: [Air-L] trolls and Aspergian "sufferers"
>
> Hi Michael and any other new folks reading here:
>
> Just wanted to quickly jump in to let you know two things:
>
> 1. I am in utter agreement with what you have written below, and I thank
> you for writing it. What's more, based on my familiarity with members of
> AoIR that goes back more than a decade now, I think I can say with
> certainty that you weren't the only one  who read the comments about autism
> in the "trolling" thread and thought:
>
>  "Uh, no. Also, STFU."
>
> As an 'older' AoIR member, I  apologize for not jumping into this sooner. A
> new person shouldn't have to introduce themselves in this way. Sorry.
>
> 2. If disability rights and social media research is an interest of yours,
> I can tell you AoIR members have produced some *amazing* scholarship in
> this area. Gerard Goggin, Helen Kennedy and Kathy Mancuso and others could
> probably give better citations than I could, so I will leave it to them...
>
> 3. Welcome to AoIR, really, and if you get to Manchester in Fall, I will
> buy you a drink and let you look at my astonishing white woman hair. As
> anyone can tell you, it's often one of the highlights of our annual
> conference.
>
> Best,
> Terri
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Michael Scarce <scarce at mac.com> wrote:
>
> > Greetings everyone,
> >
> > This is not exactly the kind of self-introduction I imagined as a new
> > member of AIR, and it has nothing to do with social awkwardness.
> >
> > I fully understand the research topic is primarily about trolling. My
> > comments here are less about topical tangents, and more about the ethical
> > principles of research conduct and professional values of AIR as a whole.
> >
> > I have to say that I'm appalled by the framing and discussion of people
> > living with Asperger's Syndrome in these postings.
> >
> > I'm not especially interested in quibbling about the boundaries of a wide
> > spectrum of highly contested characteristics, traits, and behaviors, even
> > in deference to the diagnostic pathology of the DSM.
> >
> > For some of us, it's also very much a cultural, social, and political
> > identity from which we do not "suffer." Perhaps it's a personal
> > sensitization to the imposition of syndromes in general, in much the same
> > way I am unwilling to be reduced to an "AIDS patient" or "AIDS victim."
> >
> > Within a context of broad-based generalizations such as "they have major
> > difficulties with the social, which is a central part of their issue," I'm
> > truly at a loss for how to respond to the singularities of "the social,"
> > "the issue," and uniform "they."
> >
> > Call me an atypical aspie, but I do have an acute sense of social irony
> > (and even sense of humor) in how writing this might simply pave the way for
> > my dismissal. Do I remain silent and invisible, or do I speak out and risk
> > offering myself as an interim case study for other researchers eager to
> > situate me in their taxonomy of online deviance?
> >
> > We are more than a singular "issue," more than an arrested development
> > with which others have had close calls and "fortunately grown out of."
> >
> > "They" are members of your organization. It's extremely difficult to
> > invest and participate in any discourse after having been pre-defined as
> > the Other who has yet to speak.
> >
> > Michael Scarce
> > University of California San Francisco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 25, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Thomas Jones wrote:
> >
> > > It looks like my autocorrect got the best of my email ha!
> > >
> > > I'm didn't mean to state they are highly intelligent in their social
> > awkwardness. I intended to communicate that they (trolls) are often highly
> > intelligent, and often challenged by social awkwardness. I was closely
> > identified but not diagnosed with aspergers myself, but fortunately I "grew
> > out of it" so to speak.
> > >
> > > There isn't an exact parallel between trolls and aspergers, that isnt
> > really my point, but rather that they share similarities for analogous
> > purposes.
> > >
> > > Thomas Jones
> > > @othertomjones
> > > http://about.me/othertomjones
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jul 25, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Athina Karatzogianni" <athina.k at gmail.com
> > <mailto:athina.k at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Thomas,
> > >
> > > Just to say when trolls are useful, people do not generally refer to
> > them as trolls : ) but I get your point.
> > >
> > > About Aspergers sufferers, I dont know what your experience of
> > individuals with aspergers is but I wouldnt say they are highly intelligent
> > in their social awkwardness. They can be highly intelligent yes, but they
> > are not just socially awkward, they have major difficulties with the
> > social, which is a central part of their issue. So to compare trolls as
> > tending to be introverted and akin to aspergers is a bit off the mark.
> > Aspergers sufferers are not just geeky and socially awkward there are truly
> > more complex issues at stake.
> > >
> > > I have made my suggestions to Tom in an individual email earlier, but I
> > hope you and others dont mind my intervention. I felt I really had to point
> > this out.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Athina
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Thomas Jones <tajone02 at syr.edu<mailto:
> > tajone02 at syr.edu>> wrote:
> > > Let's not other that often trolls are individuals, who obviously tend to
> > be introverted, are often highly intelligent in their social awkwardness -
> > akin to those with aspergers.
> > >
> > > It are these same people who contribute to the underlying fabric of
> > slashdot for example, who also predominantly created Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > So, trolls do actually provide a useful purpose, dependent on how they
> > are motivated.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Jones
> > > @othertomjones
> > > http://about.me/othertomjones
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jul 25, 2012, at 2:15 PM, "Burcu Bakioglu" <bbakiogl at gmail.com
> > <mailto:bbakiogl at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Oh yes... most definitely! 4chan gave birth to lolAnons (trolls that
> > hacked
> > >> and defaced 7000 MySpace profiles with gay porn) and Anonymous (the
> > >> hacktivist collective) at the same time. SL group The Wrong Hands have
> > >> conducted two hacktivist initiatives in SL against two other groups:
> > >> Justice League Unlimited (paper forthcoming) and Modular Systems (paper
> > >> will be written) and exposed major surveillance and datamining
> > operations.
> > >> So yes, they are adorable that way :P (*joke*)
> > >>
> > >> Also if you're one to get easily offended, I recommend not researching
> > the
> > >> topic at all. The amount of racist, homophobic, and sexist
> > language/slurs
> > >> that I encountered, along with porn I have consumed within the last
> > decade
> > >> or so is insane. Generally, if it pisses you off and is sure to bring
> > them
> > >> the media attention, they won't shy away from it. Think of Anshe Chung
> >  who
> > >> was SL's first self-proclaimed millionaire back in the day and who made
> > it
> > >> to the cover of the Business Week. In her in-world CNet interview, goons
> > >> plummeted her with flying penises and crashed the sim... Then posted the
> > >> recording on YouTube. Bunch DMCA complaints ensued, nothing came out of
> > it,
> > >> of course. Good times :P
> > >>
> > >> But, if your concern is to keep your blogs safe, you know all you need
> > to
> > >> know by now :) There is nothing more to it, really. If there is, I am
> > >> willing to learn...
> > >>
> > >> BsB
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Kyle Kontour <kkontour at gmail.com
> > <mailto:kkontour at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> My two cents:  not only are trolls best dealt with by being ignored,
> > there
> > >>> are times that they serve a useful function in disrupting groupthink,
> > >>> pile-ons, and so-called "epistemic closure".  By contrast, they can
> > also
> > >>> foment the opposite, in group solidarity and re-affirmation of views
> > (it
> > >>> depends on how other folks deal with the trolls).  I would count
> > trolls as
> > >>> being an irritating, often awful, but nonetheless integral part of
> > online
> > >>> ecology--a bit like mosquitoes or certain parasites.
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
> > list
> > >>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> > >>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
> > >>> http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
> > >>>
> > >>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > >>> http://www.aoir.org/
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D.
> > >> Postdoctoral Fellow in New Media
> > >> Lawrence University
> > >>
> > >> http://www.palefirer.com
> > >> http://palefirer.com/blog/
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "Come to the dark side, we have cookies."
> > >> ~Anonymous
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing
> > list
> > >> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> > >> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
> > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
> > >>
> > >> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > >> http://www.aoir.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org<mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org> mailing list
> > > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> > > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
> > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
> > >
> > > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > > http://www.aoir.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > <http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/>
> > > Dr Athina Karatzogianni<
> > http://www2.hull.ac.uk/FASS/humanities/media,_culture_and_society/staff/karatzogianni,_dr_athina.aspx
> > >
> > > Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication
> > > Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
> > > The University of Hull
> > > United Kingdom
> > > HU6 7RX
> > > T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
> > > F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
> > > E: a.karatzogianni at hull.ac.uk<mailto:a.karatzogianni at hull.ac.uk>
> > >
> > > Download my work for free here:
> > > http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
> > > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> > > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
> > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
> > >
> > > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > > http://www.aoir.org/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
> > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
> > http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
> >
> > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > http://www.aoir.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> <http://goog_689013053>
>
> <http://goog_689013053>
>
> Dr. Theresa M. Senft
> Global Liberal Studies Program
> School of Arts & Sciences
> New York University
> 726 Broadway  NY NY 10003
>
> home: *www.terrisenft.net <http://goog_689013053>**
> *(needs a serious updating)
> facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft
> twitter: @terrisenft
> _______________________________________________
> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
>
> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> http://www.aoir.org/
>
>

--

Dr. Theresa M. Senft
Global Liberal Studies Program
School of Arts & Sciences
New York University
726 Broadway  NY NY 10003

home: www.terrisenft.net
(needs a serious updating)
facebook: www.facebook.com/theresa.senft
twitter: @terrisenft