[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?

Wed Apr 24 10:52:00 PDT 2019

Dear Amparo,

many thanks - an excellent summary

On 24/04/2019 19:26, AMPARO LASEN DIAZ wrote:
> Dear Charles and Aoir list,
> 
> I think this relates to the link between writing and memory and Plato's 
> account of Socrate's consideration of writing as pharmakon, a greek term 
> meaning remedy and poison. So for instance, writing could allow for 
> preparing speeches, and being persuasive, beyond the power of one's own 
> memory, thus being a remedy for the limitations of our capacity to 
> memorize. 
Yes, precisely - this is the object lesson, I would argue, that Socrates 
(as re-presented by Plato) is attempting to urge on the young Phaedrus, 
who, it may be argued, runs the risk of being overly impressed / taken 
with what he can do with this relatively new technology.

> But at the same time if we rely on writing and stop 
> memorizing, people, specially young learners could lose or reduce the 
> capacity of their memory.
Yes, but this is to some degree a strawman, i.e., a fasle either/or that 
I don't see in the original story - as Postman also points out.

> Derrida aldo deploys the idea of writing as 
> pharmakon. The moral panic not only relates to losing the training of 
> memory, but also to the moral value Socrates and Plato give to memory 
> and to learning by memory, which will aldo be lost if young pupils rely 
> mainly on   writing  instead of memory and orality. This reflection and 
> considerations are places in Socrate's and Plato's critique of sofistes, 
> a kind of professional writers producing speeches and persuasive 
> arguments, acused of not being guided by the pursuit of truth  but by 
> spurious or manipulative interests
Again, spot on, so far as I can tell / recall - but none of this fits 
with moral or media panic _per se_, as I try to make somewhat clearer in 
my response to Thomas Ball.
> 
> Hope it could help, just a quick answer from my memories of reading that 
> text.
It helps me at least enormously.  Again, many thanks!
- c.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Amparo Lasen
> 
> 
> 
> El mié., 24 abr. 2019 18:38, Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no 
> <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> escribió:
> 
>     Dear AoIRists,
> 
>     Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>     training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>     Greek.  I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>     regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>     instance.
> 
>     I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>     consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
> 
>     This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
>     list of
>     reasons.  I include a short list below for anyone with time and
>     interest
>     in looking them over.
> 
>     The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
>     has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>     mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
>     prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> 
>     This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
>     I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>     trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
>     somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
>     those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>     communication studies.
> 
>     Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>     best,
>     - charles ess
> 
>     PS: The short list includes:
>     1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of
>     the
>     larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
>     beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
>     Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>     initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>     immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>     likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>     dissimulation.  By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>     2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>     translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>     philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>     contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
>     mythos
>     is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>     strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
>     interlocutors,
>     attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>     The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
>     contradictory.
>     3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>     sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>     believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>     Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>     presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
>     vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>     And so on.
>     Again: what am I missing?
> 
>     Again, many thanks,
>     - c.
>     -- 
>     Professor in Media Studies
>     Department of Media and Communication
>     University of Oslo
>     <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> 
>     Postboks 1093
>     Blindern 0317
>     Oslo, Norway
>     c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
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-- 
Professor in Media Studies
Department of Media and Communication
University of Oslo
<http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>

Postboks 1093
Blindern 0317
Oslo, Norway
c.m.ess at media.uio.no