[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Mark D. Johns
mjohns at luther.edu
Wed Apr 24 11:08:55 PDT 2019
Walter Ong draws on Phaedrus in his 1982 Orality & Literacy. He may be
the one who opened the box. However, Ong does not address moral panic,
merely the contrast between orality and literacy, and the suspicion of
all new media.
--
Mark D. Johns, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus of Communication Studies
at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa USA
now residing in Minneapolis, MN
-----------------------------------------------
"Get the facts first. You can distort them later."
---Mark Twain
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> wrote:
>
> Dear Amparo,
>
> many thanks - an excellent summary
>
> On 24/04/2019 19:26, AMPARO LASEN DIAZ wrote:
> > Dear Charles and Aoir list,
> >
> > I think this relates to the link between writing and memory and Plato's
> > account of Socrate's consideration of writing as pharmakon, a greek term
> > meaning remedy and poison. So for instance, writing could allow for
> > preparing speeches, and being persuasive, beyond the power of one's own
> > memory, thus being a remedy for the limitations of our capacity to
> > memorize.
> Yes, precisely - this is the object lesson, I would argue, that Socrates
> (as re-presented by Plato) is attempting to urge on the young Phaedrus,
> who, it may be argued, runs the risk of being overly impressed / taken
> with what he can do with this relatively new technology.
>
>
> > But at the same time if we rely on writing and stop
> > memorizing, people, specially young learners could lose or reduce the
> > capacity of their memory.
> Yes, but this is to some degree a strawman, i.e., a fasle either/or that
> I don't see in the original story - as Postman also points out.
>
> > Derrida aldo deploys the idea of writing as
> > pharmakon. The moral panic not only relates to losing the training of
> > memory, but also to the moral value Socrates and Plato give to memory
> > and to learning by memory, which will aldo be lost if young pupils rely
> > mainly on writing instead of memory and orality. This reflection and
> > considerations are places in Socrate's and Plato's critique of sofistes,
> > a kind of professional writers producing speeches and persuasive
> > arguments, acused of not being guided by the pursuit of truth but by
> > spurious or manipulative interests
> Again, spot on, so far as I can tell / recall - but none of this fits
> with moral or media panic _per se_, as I try to make somewhat clearer in
> my response to Thomas Ball.
> >
> > Hope it could help, just a quick answer from my memories of reading that
> > text.
> It helps me at least enormously. Again, many thanks!
> - c.
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Amparo Lasen
> >
> >
> >
> > El mié., 24 abr. 2019 18:38, Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> escribió:
> >
> > Dear AoIRists,
> >
> > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
> > training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
> > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
> > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
> > instance.
> >
> > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
> > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
> >
> > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
> > list of
> > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and
> > interest
> > in looking them over.
> >
> > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when - introduced what
> > has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
> > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the Phaedrus is a
> > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> >
> > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative inquiry.
> > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
> > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may have
> > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and obvious for
> > those of you with academic training more directly within media and
> > communication studies.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
> > best,
> > - charles ess
> >
> > PS: The short list includes:
> > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context of
> > the
> > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger context -
> > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps seduce)
> > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
> > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
> > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
> > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
> > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
> > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
> > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
> > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
> > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
> > mythos
> > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
> > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
> > interlocutors,
> > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
> > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often complementary, not
> > contradictory.
> > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
> > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
> > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
> > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
> > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of mythos
> > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
> > And so on.
> > Again: what am I missing?
> >
> > Again, many thanks,
> > - c.
> > --
> > Professor in Media Studies
> > Department of Media and Communication
> > University of Oslo
> > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> >
> > Postboks 1093
> > Blindern 0317
> > Oslo, Norway
> > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> _______________________________________________
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