[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Mark D. Johns
mjohns at luther.edu
Sun Apr 28 10:26:42 PDT 2019
Charles,
Another text you may wish to consult in this regard:
Couch, C. J. (2017). Information technologies and social orders
(Second edition). New York, NY : Transaction Publishers
https://www.worldcat.org/title/information-technologies-and-social-orders/oclc/973879085?referer=di&ht=edition
--
Mark D. Johns, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus of Communication Studies
at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa USA
now residing in Minneapolis, MN
-----------------------------------------------
"Get the facts first. You can distort them later."
---Mark Twain
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:05 AM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> wrote:
>
> Again, many thanks on all fronts.
>
> Can you provide an example of historians who place the origins of
> writing to 700 BCE in Greece? This would likewise greatly puzzle me - I
> thought it was common knowledge that the Epic of Gilgamesh is likely
> from 2700 BCE, generally regarded as in-scribing oral traditions that go
> back earlier; hieroglyphics are likewise well before 700 BCE, etc.
>
> I'd have to go back to check - but my recollection is that these
> historical episodes / examples of writing are properly included in the
> theorists / historians familiar to me. But again, my great worry is
> that I've missed something (many things) more familiar and taken for
> granted among colleagues with more formal academic training in media and
> communication studies.
>
> If I ever turn any of this into a presentable paper, I'll let you and
> all the other contributors to this thread know - and certainly
> gratefully acknowledge all the insights and help.
>
> Again, many thanks and all best.
> - charles
>
> On 26/04/2019 16:32, Thomas Ball wrote:
> > Charles-
> > Based on the empirical information from Google Ngrams, it would
> > appear that modern notions of moral and media panic were initiated by
> > McLuhan in his 1964 book, /Understanding Media./ It's around or shortly
> > after that date that these keywords explode into exponential or even
> > superexponential growth. While Havelock's book was first published in
> > 1963, it's doubtful that it could have had such widespread dissemination
> > as to catalyze the observed growth rate in these keywords. Moreover,
> > Ong's book and theory was a much later contribution to an already extant
> > literature.
> > Regardless, it's useful to suggest that Plato's ambivalence about
> > writing in the /Phaedrus/ was a similarly late contribution. Those
> > historians who place the origins of writing to around 700 BC in Greece
> > are entirely missing the fact that there was an earlier, more than 3,000
> > year old cuneiform civilization in Sumeria. This places into question
> > any theories linking temporal shifts in orality, chirometry, cognition,
> > memory, brain function, etc., to pre-Socratic Greece. In other words,
> > why wouldn't there be a similar shift occurring millennia before the
> > Greeks? See Marc Van De Mieroop's book, /Philosophy Before the Greeks:
> > The Pursuit of Truth in Ancient Babylonia/, for confirmation of these facts.
> > Best regards,
> > Thomas
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 7:24 AM Ricardo Rohm <ricardorohm at gmail.com
> > <mailto:ricardorohm at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Charles and Air-lists,
> >
> > Congrats for this insightful discussion! Really.
> > This made me also think about one of the questions which concerns,
> > ultimately, "who opened the box first".
> > I do not know if this one might be the case, but in my life I have
> > sometimes faced some so-called scientific discourses which seemed to be
> > entitled with logical meaning, a valid argument or even deductively
> > achieved by a plettora of "practical examples or personal experiences".
> > Whatever.
> > I have also come accross conclusions from reflexions, surveys and
> > essays,
> > which have been used strategically for important purposes, decision
> > makings
> > by governments and corporatios. Many of which have lead humanity to
> > misery,
> > war, suffering, and oppression: yes oppression!
> >
> > Citing and refering to famous classical authors in the past ( and
> > still
> > nowadays) is an interesting habit which goes far beyond than a simpler
> > meaning of well- established methodological procedures or even research
> > designs. Beyond also a rhetoric concern or vanity. Indeed, and I
> > repeat, -
> > I do not know if the present case in the Air-l here discussed might be
> > considered in my refkexion! - I cannot avoid but keep wondering:
> >
> > To whom would it be useful and empowering to cast away important
> > critics on
> > new technologies, as well as, who "should" be spared of the
> > so-called "weak
> > and worthless critics", once someone or some organization (and if
> > science,.in general is considered, an Institution) decides that these
> > critics might be nothing but some kind of moral or psychological
> > disorder
> > or malfunction ?
> >
> > On the other hand - (and I might share mine with many ) - what might
> > motivate the curiosity towards "opening this box of Plato/Socrates"
> > in the
> > present moment?
> > Yes, because this is the time when privacy ans other "boxes and
> > caves seem
> > to be vanishing" , intentionally produced disinformation is compromising
> > democracy in many countries, and.so on and forth.
> >
> > In fact, I decided to share my own concerns here with you because,
> > maybe,
> > someone becomes intetested in producing some research or personal
> > discussions at some future phisical venue, strengthening memory and
> > bonds,
> > instead of "writing or computing".
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Ricardo Rohm
> > Federal University of Rio de Janeiro
> > (at) FAU - Erlangen- Nürnberg
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 18:37 Charles M. Ess, <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> > <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear AoIRists,
> > >
> > > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
> > > training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
> > > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
> > > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
> > > instance.
> > >
> > > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
> > > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
> > >
> > > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
> > list of
> > > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and
> > interest
> > > in looking them over.
> > >
> > > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when -
> > introduced what
> > > has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
> > > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the
> > Phaedrus is a
> > > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
> > >
> > > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative
> > inquiry.
> > > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
> > > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may
> > have
> > > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and
> > obvious for
> > > those of you with academic training more directly within media and
> > > communication studies.
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
> > > best,
> > > - charles ess
> > >
> > > PS: The short list includes:
> > > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context
> > of the
> > > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger
> > context -
> > > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps
> > seduce)
> > > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
> > > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
> > > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
> > > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
> > > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
> > > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
> > > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
> > > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
> > > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
> > mythos
> > > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
> > > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
> > interlocutors,
> > > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
> > > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often
> > complementary, not
> > > contradictory.
> > > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
> > > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
> > > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
> > > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
> > > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of
> > mythos
> > > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
> > > And so on.
> > > Again: what am I missing?
> > >
> > > Again, many thanks,
> > > - c.
> > > --
> > > Professor in Media Studies
> > > Department of Media and Communication
> > > University of Oslo
> > > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
> > >
> > > Postboks 1093
> > > Blindern 0317
> > > Oslo, Norway
> > > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> --
> Professor in Media Studies
> Department of Media and Communication
> University of Oslo
> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>
> Postboks 1093
> Blindern 0317
> Oslo, Norway
> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
> _______________________________________________
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