[Air-L] history of Plato's Phaedrus as example of moral / media panic?
Charles M. Ess
c.m.ess at media.uio.no
Mon Apr 29 23:18:34 PDT 2019
Dear Mark & colleagues,
great - terrific - so noted and many thanks indeed!
best,
- c.
On 28/04/2019 19:26, Mark D. Johns wrote:
> Charles,
>
> Another text you may wish to consult in this regard:
> Couch, C. J. (2017). Information technologies and social orders
> (Second edition). New York, NY : Transaction Publishers
> https://www.worldcat.org/title/information-technologies-and-social-orders/oclc/973879085?referer=di&ht=edition
> --
> Mark D. Johns, Ph.D.
> Professor Emeritus of Communication Studies
> at Luther College, Decorah, Iowa USA
> now residing in Minneapolis, MN
> -----------------------------------------------
> "Get the facts first. You can distort them later."
> ---Mark Twain
>
> On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 9:05 AM Charles M. Ess <c.m.ess at media.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>> Again, many thanks on all fronts.
>>
>> Can you provide an example of historians who place the origins of
>> writing to 700 BCE in Greece? This would likewise greatly puzzle me - I
>> thought it was common knowledge that the Epic of Gilgamesh is likely
>> from 2700 BCE, generally regarded as in-scribing oral traditions that go
>> back earlier; hieroglyphics are likewise well before 700 BCE, etc.
>>
>> I'd have to go back to check - but my recollection is that these
>> historical episodes / examples of writing are properly included in the
>> theorists / historians familiar to me. But again, my great worry is
>> that I've missed something (many things) more familiar and taken for
>> granted among colleagues with more formal academic training in media and
>> communication studies.
>>
>> If I ever turn any of this into a presentable paper, I'll let you and
>> all the other contributors to this thread know - and certainly
>> gratefully acknowledge all the insights and help.
>>
>> Again, many thanks and all best.
>> - charles
>>
>> On 26/04/2019 16:32, Thomas Ball wrote:
>>> Charles-
>>> Based on the empirical information from Google Ngrams, it would
>>> appear that modern notions of moral and media panic were initiated by
>>> McLuhan in his 1964 book, /Understanding Media./ It's around or shortly
>>> after that date that these keywords explode into exponential or even
>>> superexponential growth. While Havelock's book was first published in
>>> 1963, it's doubtful that it could have had such widespread dissemination
>>> as to catalyze the observed growth rate in these keywords. Moreover,
>>> Ong's book and theory was a much later contribution to an already extant
>>> literature.
>>> Regardless, it's useful to suggest that Plato's ambivalence about
>>> writing in the /Phaedrus/ was a similarly late contribution. Those
>>> historians who place the origins of writing to around 700 BC in Greece
>>> are entirely missing the fact that there was an earlier, more than 3,000
>>> year old cuneiform civilization in Sumeria. This places into question
>>> any theories linking temporal shifts in orality, chirometry, cognition,
>>> memory, brain function, etc., to pre-Socratic Greece. In other words,
>>> why wouldn't there be a similar shift occurring millennia before the
>>> Greeks? See Marc Van De Mieroop's book, /Philosophy Before the Greeks:
>>> The Pursuit of Truth in Ancient Babylonia/, for confirmation of these facts.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 7:24 AM Ricardo Rohm <ricardorohm at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:ricardorohm at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Charles and Air-lists,
>>>
>>> Congrats for this insightful discussion! Really.
>>> This made me also think about one of the questions which concerns,
>>> ultimately, "who opened the box first".
>>> I do not know if this one might be the case, but in my life I have
>>> sometimes faced some so-called scientific discourses which seemed to be
>>> entitled with logical meaning, a valid argument or even deductively
>>> achieved by a plettora of "practical examples or personal experiences".
>>> Whatever.
>>> I have also come accross conclusions from reflexions, surveys and
>>> essays,
>>> which have been used strategically for important purposes, decision
>>> makings
>>> by governments and corporatios. Many of which have lead humanity to
>>> misery,
>>> war, suffering, and oppression: yes oppression!
>>>
>>> Citing and refering to famous classical authors in the past ( and
>>> still
>>> nowadays) is an interesting habit which goes far beyond than a simpler
>>> meaning of well- established methodological procedures or even research
>>> designs. Beyond also a rhetoric concern or vanity. Indeed, and I
>>> repeat, -
>>> I do not know if the present case in the Air-l here discussed might be
>>> considered in my refkexion! - I cannot avoid but keep wondering:
>>>
>>> To whom would it be useful and empowering to cast away important
>>> critics on
>>> new technologies, as well as, who "should" be spared of the
>>> so-called "weak
>>> and worthless critics", once someone or some organization (and if
>>> science,.in general is considered, an Institution) decides that these
>>> critics might be nothing but some kind of moral or psychological
>>> disorder
>>> or malfunction ?
>>>
>>> On the other hand - (and I might share mine with many ) - what might
>>> motivate the curiosity towards "opening this box of Plato/Socrates"
>>> in the
>>> present moment?
>>> Yes, because this is the time when privacy ans other "boxes and
>>> caves seem
>>> to be vanishing" , intentionally produced disinformation is compromising
>>> democracy in many countries, and.so on and forth.
>>>
>>> In fact, I decided to share my own concerns here with you because,
>>> maybe,
>>> someone becomes intetested in producing some research or personal
>>> discussions at some future phisical venue, strengthening memory and
>>> bonds,
>>> instead of "writing or computing".
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Ricardo Rohm
>>> Federal University of Rio de Janeiro
>>> (at) FAU - Erlangen- Nürnberg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 18:37 Charles M. Ess, <c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>>> <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear AoIRists,
>>> >
>>> > Please be kind and patient with me, recalling that my formal academic
>>> > training was in history of philosophy, German literature, and ancient
>>> > Greek. I am comparatively still a little wet around the ears with
>>> > regard to media and communication studies - or so it seems in this
>>> > instance.
>>> >
>>> > I keep encountering discussions of moral / media panics that
>>> > consistently invoke Plato's _myth_ of the invention of writing.
>>> >
>>> > This seemingly standard invocation puzzles me greatly for a long
>>> list of
>>> > reasons. I include a short list below for anyone with time and
>>> interest
>>> > in looking them over.
>>> >
>>> > The upshot is that I'm left wondering: who - and when -
>>> introduced what
>>> > has apparently become received tradition in these domains that the
>>> > mythos (see "2" below) of the invention of writing in the
>>> Phaedrus is a
>>> > prime or supportive example moral or media panic?
>>> >
>>> > This is, as they say in administration-speak, an appreciative
>>> inquiry.
>>> > I'm genuinely curious for the sake of better understanding how this
>>> > trope first appeared, etc - as well as genuine worried that I may
>>> have
>>> > somehow missed something that is considered elementary and
>>> obvious for
>>> > those of you with academic training more directly within media and
>>> > communication studies.
>>> >
>>> > Many thanks in advance for any enlightenment and eludation!
>>> > best,
>>> > - charles ess
>>> >
>>> > PS: The short list includes:
>>> > 1) the account is taken (bloody and screaming) out of the context
>>> of the
>>> > larger dialogue in the Phaedrus. When read within the larger
>>> context -
>>> > beginning with (the young) Phaedrus' effort to impress (perhaps
>>> seduce)
>>> > Socrates by memorizing a speech he has copied down on a scroll and
>>> > initially tries to hide from Socrates - the mythos works much more
>>> > immediately as a lightly veiled (and hence, pedagogically speaking,
>>> > likely more successful) chastisement of Phaedrus' efforts at
>>> > dissimulation. By no means a wholesale critique of writing per se.
>>> > 2) The account is explicitly delivered as a _mythos_ - too easily
>>> > translated as a "myth." But: a _mythos_ in Plato is a technical /
>>> > philosophical form, going well beyond and in some ways directly
>>> > contradicting more everyday notions of "myth" as a false story; a
>>> mythos
>>> > is specifically an _oral_ story, with its own set of distinctive
>>> > strengths and limitations. It is often used in Plato when
>>> interlocutors,
>>> > attempting to pursue a reasoned argument (logos), come to an impass.
>>> > The relation between mythos and logos is hence often
>>> complementary, not
>>> > contradictory.
>>> > 3) It would seem very odd for an author of multiple dialogues, of
>>> > sometimes staggering sophistication and literary nuance, to sincerely
>>> > believe that writing is somehow an entirely suspect technology.
>>> > Different from orality, certainly, as is suggested by the consistent
>>> > presentation of Socrates as an oral teacher, the careful use of
>>> mythos
>>> > vs. logos, etc. - but hardly an example of media / moral panic.
>>> > And so on.
>>> > Again: what am I missing?
>>> >
>>> > Again, many thanks,
>>> > - c.
>>> > --
>>> > Professor in Media Studies
>>> > Department of Media and Communication
>>> > University of Oslo
>>> > <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>> >
>>> > Postboks 1093
>>> > Blindern 0317
>>> > Oslo, Norway
>>> > c.m.ess at media.uio.no <mailto:c.m.ess at media.uio.no>
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org <mailto:Air-L at listserv.aoir.org>
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>>
>> --
>> Professor in Media Studies
>> Department of Media and Communication
>> University of Oslo
>> <http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
>>
>> Postboks 1093
>> Blindern 0317
>> Oslo, Norway
>> c.m.ess at media.uio.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org
>> Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org
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>> Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
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--
Professor in Media Studies
Department of Media and Communication
University of Oslo
<http://www.hf.uio.no/imk/english/people/aca/charlees/index.html>
Postboks 1093
Blindern 0317
Oslo, Norway
c.m.ess at media.uio.no
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