[Air-L] Elon Musk & free speech

Wed Dec 7 09:10:51 PST 2022

Thanks for the comments, Petter.  Some brief responses:

You say: 1) Not all of us are in the US, and the US constitution is of
limited
interest and applicability to a lot of us, apart from being a major
influence on the big tech companies we are forced to interact with.
Moreover, big tech companies need to also take the laws in other countries
into account if they wish to officially operate and generate ad revenue
there.

The US & the US Constitution was indeed my focus, because Twitter, Musk,
and I are all headquartered in the US.  But the First Amendment has roots
that go back much further and wider than the US.  I specifically mention
John Milton in the op-ed, and this thinking draws on Pericles, Socrates,
etc.

2) Criminality includes, in far too many jurisdictions, things like
"homosexual propaganda". Should that be suppressed? Why, or why not? To me
referring exclusively to 'legality' (in a specific jurisdiction, no less)
tells me basically nothing about what you actually believe should be
suppressed or not, and by whom.

Criminality indeed has all sorts of outrageous racist, discriminatory
applications around the world, including in the U.S.  What I was getting at
was free speech protections should not extend to bona-fide criminal
activities, like, for example, conspiracy to murder.  And as for the
designation of "criminal" to suppress what consenting adults may want to
do, those labels should be denounced and removed.

3) A systems purpose is what it does. The 'marketplace' is not only not
equal from the start, but also reproduces and increases inequality and
power imbalances.

Yes, and I support progressive actions to reduce those inequalities,
including anti-monopoly laws, equitable taxation (so the very rich pay
their fair share), etc.

-- PL

It's Real Life <https://vocal.media/fiction/it-s-real-life> -- free, new
alternate history short story about The Beatles & WFUV, now being made into
a radio play

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 1:25 AM Petter Ericson <pettter at cs.umu.se> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I might point out that
>
> 1) Not all of us are in the US, and the US constitution is of limited
> interest and applicability to a lot of us, apart from being a major
> influence on the big tech companies we are forced to interact with.
> Moreover, big tech companies need to also take the laws in other countries
> into account if they wish to officially operate and generate ad revenue
> there.
>
> 2) Criminality includes, in far too many jurisdictions, things like
> "homosexual propaganda". Should that be suppressed? Why, or why not? To me
> referring exclusively to 'legality' (in a specific jurisdiction, no less)
> tells me basically nothing about what you actually believe should be
> suppressed or not, and by whom.
>
> 3) A systems purpose is what it does. The 'marketplace' is not only not
> equal from the start, but also reproduces and increases inequality and
> power imbalances.
>
> In sum I would reiterate Sky's point about widening one's scope in terms of
> the "free speech" debate, not only in relation to harassment, but also more
> generally. In particular, it might be instructive to be a bit introspective
> and ask _why_ do you want some specific version of 'free' speech?
>
> Who is it that you want to hear, or to be heard?
>
> Who is it that you want to speak to, or be heard by?
>
> And about what?
>
> Best,
>
> /P
>
> On 06 December, 2022 - Paul Levinson via Air-L wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the link to your article, Sky -- I found it enlightening in
> > several ways.
> >
> > I will point out, however, two points in which we might not agree:  1.
> As
> > I mentioned in my Op-Ed, criminal activity was and is never protected by
> > the First Amendment.  Although I gave only two examples in my short essay
> > -- misleading info about Covid, and the storming of the US Capitol in
> > January 2021 -- there of course are many other kinds of crimes that
> should
> > not and would not be protected speech.  These certainly include
> > harassment.  2.  You say the "marketplace of ideas" is inherently not
> > equal.  No doubt that's true in practice -- and true of everything.  But
> > it's worth pointing out that, in theory, the marketplace of ideas is
> > supposed to provide equal access to all ideas.  Indeed, as I say in the
> > op-ed, that's its raison d'etre.
> >
> > -- PL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:10 PM Sky Croeser <scroeser at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > With some trepidation, I'm going to build on what Morten is saying to
> add
> > > that "free speech", and the US Constitution, are not the only
> frameworks
> > > that we might use to think through these ideas. Avoiding state
> repression
> > > is important, but if all attempts to shape the spaces where we discuss
> and
> > > deliberate are positioned as being somewhere along the line between
> > > "censorship" and "free speech", we miss other important considerations.
> > >
> > > There are important questions that are not always best answered within
> > > this framework, including:
> > > * Who gets to speak, and who gets listened to?
> > > * Who is safe speaking?
> > > * Do the structures we build support constructive (or transformative,
> or
> > > generative) dialogue, or conflict?
> > > * What kinds of ideas and emotions spread through different systems we
> > > build?
> > >
> > > These questions are worth asking not just about Twitter but also about
> > > alternatives we're exploring, and I hope that we'll consider other
> > > frameworks of thought beyond the liberal free speech framework.
> > >
> > > I've written more about this here:
> > > https://adanewmedia.org/2016/10/issue10-croeser/
> > >
> > > And there's also a comic version! Available to print out at home and
> turn
> > > into a booklet if you need a fun stocking stuffer!*
> > >
> > >
> https://medium.com/@nicolemarieburton/a-new-comic-that-challenges-us-to-reframe-our-notions-of-freedom-of-speech-and-freedom-in-84e1ecd1d1af
> > >
> > > *I'm joking please don't shout at me but please feel free to ask for a
> > > printable version
> > >
> > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 at 6:44 am, Paul Levinson via Air-L <
> > > air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks for that, Morten.  I do make precisely that point -- the
> difference
> > >> between government censorship and private organization content
> moderation
> > >> -- in my Op-Ed.
> > >>
> > >> -- Paul
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 5:11 PM Morten Bay via Air-L <
> > >> air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Before this discussion goes any further (or off the rails), I have a
> > >> small
> > >> > request on behalf of those of us on the sidelines trying to learn
> from
> > >> > people smarter than us:
> > >> >
> > >> > When we discuss these matters, can we please distinguish between
> > >> > state-enforced censorship and oppression of free speech versus the
> > >> > also-constitutionally protected rights to content moderation and
> > >> editorial
> > >> > decisions in privately-held media? Can we please also distinguish
> > >> between
> > >> > coercion and persuasion as expressions of power?
> > >> >
> > >> > I think that will generate a more nuanced and less polarized
> discussion
> > >> to
> > >> > everyone’s benefit.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks.
> > >> >
> > >> > Morten
> > >> >
> > >> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> on behalf of
> > >> > andrew.lowenthal--- via Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > >> > Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:23 PM
> > >> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] Elon Musk & free speech
> > >> > It is truly breathtaking that the default position now in
> 'academia' is
> > >> > one of free speech suppression...
> > >> >
> > >> > "Do we tolerate too much?" is asked... perhaps ask someone in
> Indonesia
> > >> > who as of today can face jail criticising the president... anti-free
> > >> > speech 'liberals' embolden authoritarians around the world.
> > >> >
> > >> > The fact that people are going in to bat for Big Tech for
> suppressing a
> > >> > story about the Biden family dealings in Ukraine and China (to say
> > >> > nothing of Hunter's predilections for cocaine and sex workers) is
> > >> > astounding... how much lower can 'academia' sink?
> > >> >
> > >> > Interest in the actual truth is long gone, and liberals are just as
> > >> > partisan as conservatives. Intellectuals who care nothing for party
> > >> > tribalism are all but extinct (or at least very quiet).
> > >> >
> > >> > If you are interested in a different take you might like to try
> this...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/punching-down-how-the-anti-disinformation__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEi1AcJ6Fg$
> > >> > <
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/punching-down-how-the-anti-disinformation__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEi1AcJ6Fg$
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Best,
> > >> > Andrew
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 12/6/22 20:51, Paul Levinson via Air-L wrote:
> > >> > > just up on NBC News Think: my op-ed about Elon Musk and free
> speech
> > >> > > <
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/elon-musks-twitter-files-trump-tweets-complicate-free-speech-rcna60322__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEgnQAbu9Q$
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -- PL
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
> > >> > > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers
> > >> >
> > >>
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> > >> > <
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhPlpZETg$
> > >> > >
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> > >> > <
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhFcrzoAw$
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
> > >> > >
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> > >> > <
> > >> >
> > >>
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> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
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> > >> > <
> > >> >
> > >>
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> > >> > >
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> > >> > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
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> > >>
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> > >> > >
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> --
> Petter Ericson, pettter at cs.umu.se
> Postdoc in the Responsible AI group, Department of Computing Science,
> University of Umeå
>