[Air-L] Elon Musk & free speech

Paul Levinson levinson.paul at gmail.com
Tue Dec 6 18:23:55 PST 2022 

I've been on Mastodon about six weeks now, and I'm really enjoying it.  For
me, it's akin to what I liked about Facebook and Twitter in their early
years -- meeting people I hadn't been in touch with for years.

-- PL


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 7:31 PM Peter Timusk <peterotimusk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I also think you could consider these laws in other countries. In Canada
> hate speech has recently in the past few decades been added to exceptions
> to freedom of expression. I don't think exporting the US constitution is
> always a good way of going about spreading democracy. I have also looked at
> Estonia's new constitution and seen privacy of medical records as a
> constitutional right. But this sort of digresses from Internet studies.
>
> I have not been using Twitter as much these past few weeks. I started a
> mastodon account and check it every few days and add about a post a week.
>
> As you know the network effect is probably how we ended up using Twitter.
> May be three months from now statistics or studies will show Mastodon
> having a network effect.
>
> On Tue., Dec. 6, 2022, 7:06 p.m. Paul Levinson via Air-L, <
> air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link to your article, Sky -- I found it enlightening in
>> several ways.
>>
>> I will point out, however, two points in which we might not agree:  1.  As
>> I mentioned in my Op-Ed, criminal activity was and is never protected by
>> the First Amendment.  Although I gave only two examples in my short essay
>> -- misleading info about Covid, and the storming of the US Capitol in
>> January 2021 -- there of course are many other kinds of crimes that should
>> not and would not be protected speech.  These certainly include
>> harassment.  2.  You say the "marketplace of ideas" is inherently not
>> equal.  No doubt that's true in practice -- and true of everything.  But
>> it's worth pointing out that, in theory, the marketplace of ideas is
>> supposed to provide equal access to all ideas.  Indeed, as I say in the
>> op-ed, that's its raison d'etre.
>>
>> -- PL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:10 PM Sky Croeser <scroeser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > With some trepidation, I'm going to build on what Morten is saying to
>> add
>> > that "free speech", and the US Constitution, are not the only frameworks
>> > that we might use to think through these ideas. Avoiding state
>> repression
>> > is important, but if all attempts to shape the spaces where we discuss
>> and
>> > deliberate are positioned as being somewhere along the line between
>> > "censorship" and "free speech", we miss other important considerations.
>> >
>> > There are important questions that are not always best answered within
>> > this framework, including:
>> > * Who gets to speak, and who gets listened to?
>> > * Who is safe speaking?
>> > * Do the structures we build support constructive (or transformative, or
>> > generative) dialogue, or conflict?
>> > * What kinds of ideas and emotions spread through different systems we
>> > build?
>> >
>> > These questions are worth asking not just about Twitter but also about
>> > alternatives we're exploring, and I hope that we'll consider other
>> > frameworks of thought beyond the liberal free speech framework.
>> >
>> > I've written more about this here:
>> > https://adanewmedia.org/2016/10/issue10-croeser/
>> >
>> > And there's also a comic version! Available to print out at home and
>> turn
>> > into a booklet if you need a fun stocking stuffer!*
>> >
>> >
>> https://medium.com/@nicolemarieburton/a-new-comic-that-challenges-us-to-reframe-our-notions-of-freedom-of-speech-and-freedom-in-84e1ecd1d1af
>> >
>> > *I'm joking please don't shout at me but please feel free to ask for a
>> > printable version
>> >
>> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 at 6:44 am, Paul Levinson via Air-L <
>> > air-l at listserv.aoir.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks for that, Morten.  I do make precisely that point -- the
>> difference
>> >> between government censorship and private organization content
>> moderation
>> >> -- in my Op-Ed.
>> >>
>> >> -- Paul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 5:11 PM Morten Bay via Air-L <
>> >> air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Before this discussion goes any further (or off the rails), I have a
>> >> small
>> >> > request on behalf of those of us on the sidelines trying to learn
>> from
>> >> > people smarter than us:
>> >> >
>> >> > When we discuss these matters, can we please distinguish between
>> >> > state-enforced censorship and oppression of free speech versus the
>> >> > also-constitutionally protected rights to content moderation and
>> >> editorial
>> >> > decisions in privately-held media? Can we please also distinguish
>> >> between
>> >> > coercion and persuasion as expressions of power?
>> >> >
>> >> > I think that will generate a more nuanced and less polarized
>> discussion
>> >> to
>> >> > everyone’s benefit.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks.
>> >> >
>> >> > Morten
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Air-L <air-l-bounces at listserv.aoir.org> on behalf of
>> >> > andrew.lowenthal--- via Air-L <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
>> >> > Date: Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:23 PM
>> >> > To: air-l at listserv.aoir.org <air-l at listserv.aoir.org>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Air-L] Elon Musk & free speech
>> >> > It is truly breathtaking that the default position now in 'academia'
>> is
>> >> > one of free speech suppression...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Do we tolerate too much?" is asked... perhaps ask someone in
>> Indonesia
>> >> > who as of today can face jail criticising the president... anti-free
>> >> > speech 'liberals' embolden authoritarians around the world.
>> >> >
>> >> > The fact that people are going in to bat for Big Tech for
>> suppressing a
>> >> > story about the Biden family dealings in Ukraine and China (to say
>> >> > nothing of Hunter's predilections for cocaine and sex workers) is
>> >> > astounding... how much lower can 'academia' sink?
>> >> >
>> >> > Interest in the actual truth is long gone, and liberals are just as
>> >> > partisan as conservatives. Intellectuals who care nothing for party
>> >> > tribalism are all but extinct (or at least very quiet).
>> >> >
>> >> > If you are interested in a different take you might like to try
>> this...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/punching-down-how-the-anti-disinformation__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEi1AcJ6Fg$
>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/disinformationchronicle.substack.com/p/punching-down-how-the-anti-disinformation__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEi1AcJ6Fg$
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> > Andrew
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 12/6/22 20:51, Paul Levinson via Air-L wrote:
>> >> > > just up on NBC News Think: my op-ed about Elon Musk and free speech
>> >> > > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/elon-musks-twitter-files-trump-tweets-complicate-free-speech-rcna60322__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEgnQAbu9Q$
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -- PL
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> >> > > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhPlpZETg$
>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhPlpZETg$
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at:
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>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhFcrzoAw$
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.aoir.org/__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEjDrzjsYQ$
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list
>> >> > is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers
>> >> >
>> >>
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>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhPlpZETg$
>> >> > >
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>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEhFcrzoAw$
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > Join the Association of Internet Researchers:
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>> >> > <
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.aoir.org/__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!pLw_tKTFjSSAtxATGWxuanoQRIYKVvbyLD3P8_3RIcPjNZ0n-w4tEZXzSg5l0_6urdJCF3ZqcEjDrzjsYQ$
>> >> > >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
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>

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