[Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Thu Aug 9 12:54:50 PDT 2007
> >since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is on
>you to proved the point. We have shown numerous
>examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in India
>are shining in India and abroad.
*** The proof is in the product or' performance. If anyone can show
how Indian trained engineers have
found creative solutions to India's many problems and demonstrated
their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I have been in an
Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one. And I know
exactly what goes on there. I also know that they have not changed
in their fundamental approach. The result is all over to see.
That is however the not to suggest that the scarcity of Indian
engineering ingenuity or creativity is entirely of training origin.
There are other factors, most notably India's governance and its
culture: Of stifling innovation, of discouraging ingenuity and of the
inability to see, recognize and reward innovation, ingenuity and
creativity. No wonder then that the only creativity and ingenuity
coming out of Indian engineers are to be found abroad.
But the main reason for the absence of engineering ingenuity and
creativity in India , as in every other field, remains in its
education system, one founded on rote learning.
>If you admit that there is a blend of Creative and non-Creative
>Engineers everywhere, the debate >ends
*** Except in the percentages of the blend.
>How dod you say that your version is the "truth" ???
*** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a few examples of
Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to its national,
forget humanity's, good or well being.
>No one probably claims that India's situation is SAME as that of US.
*** That comes out only when challenged. There is corruption
everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the degrees. And how it
is rewarded or punished by society.
Bridges fail both in India and the USA. But when one attempts to
place both in the same degree, then one is lying thru one's teeth.
>Similarly, not everything in India is bad.
*** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an absurd level and
then attempting to demolish it.
>I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few tricks from you :)
*** I was just being facetious. It does not hurt me one bit to be
told how no one pays any attention to what I have to say. The proof
is in the responses they evoke :-).
At 12:19 PM -0700 8/9/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
>C'da
>
>
>> Is it what I said about Indian engineering colleges
>> not training
>> their students to be creative ? If that is what
>> bothers you, why
>> don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
>> statement? That would
>> put me in my place.
>
>since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is on
>you to proved the point. We have shown numerous
>examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in India
>are shining in India and abroad.
>
>
>
>> Furthermore, just because I faulted Indian
>> engineering institutions
>> of failing to inculcate creativity among their
>> students, does not
>> necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere else
>> are CREATIVE or
>> above errors of judgement or could not be guilty of
>> incompetence.
>>
>
>If you admit that there is a blend of Creative and
>non-Creative Engineers everywhere, the debate ends
>
>
>> Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
>> engineers excelling in
>> their fields and doing highly creative work in the
>> USA or in India
>> mean that my comment is without any merit.
>A few
>> exceptions cannot
>> change the truths of the vast majority.
>
>To prove merit of your statement YOU need to support
>your statement with documentation. How dod you say
>that your version is the "truth" ???
>Indian students including Graduate engineers are
>highly acclaimed in many US institutes. Guess under
>which educational system they had their basic
>education ?
>
>
>> Just because of the lapses on one or more instances
> > resulting in the
>> Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
>> mean that it is
>> absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean that
>> since such
>> absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced by
>> the percentage of
>> failures, India's situation the SAME as that of the
>> USA.
>
>No one probably claims that India's situation is SAME
>as that of US. There are areas where India is worse
>then US and there are areas where US is worse then
>India. However, unlike your tall claims, "checks and
>balances" DO fail in US too; corruption is NOT
>something which is absent in US.
>Similarly, not everything in India is bad. India is
>developing fast and there are improvements in
>different areas but I agree, with eyes closed by
>India-Hate, it is difficult to see.
>
>> *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it hurts,
>> don't you :-)?
>
>I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
>tricks from you :)
>
>> Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
>> failure in our local paper.
>>
>>
>>http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/3075F8E291AEA88386257332000A1983?OpenDocument
>> I hope the above will put your suspicions about my
>> spinning that story .
>
>
>Please check this .... a more authoratitive source I
>would believe
>....http://boston.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel06/contractorfraud050406.htm
>
>Note -- "They are charged with highway project fraud
>and related offenses for their participation in a
>scheme to provide concrete to Big Dig projects that
>did not meet contract specifications, and to conceal
>the true nature of the concrete through false
>documentation."
>
>I think "concealing the true nature through false
>documents" is corruption. May be your superlative
>English knowledge will interpret it as "human error" !
>
>Even from your source -- "Powers Fasteners knew the
>type of epoxy it marketed and sold for the nearly $15
>billion project was unsuitable for the weight it would
>have to hold, but never told project managers." -- it
>is eveident that some people concealed some KNOWN
>facts .... human error indeed :)
>
>It is difficult to digest that a person who will
>travel to the other end of World (or World Wide Web)
>to find a fault in Indian System (or Indians) failed
>to notice this :)
>
>Once again you abstained from answering many of the
>questions from my posting ... but again , this is not
>the first time !
>
>K
>
>
>
>--- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> > >Looks like you want to avoid answering these
>> since then you might
>> >have to eat up some of your >words on Indian
>> Engineers. I would not
>> >insist you to answer these.
>>
>>
>>
>> *** Now I get it! You are trying to find ways to
>> have me ">--eat up
>> some of your words on Indian Engineers". I must have
>> caused a lot of
>> heart-burn again, did I?
>>
>> But the question that remains unanswered is WHAT I
>> supposedly said
>> about Indian engineers that trouble you so and would
>> like to have me
>> 'eat them' ?
>>
>> Is it what I said about Indian engineering colleges
>> not training
>> their students to be creative ? If that is what
>> bothers you, why
>> don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
>> statement? That would
>> put me in my place. I know you are somewhat
>> handicapped by not being
>> an engineer . Perhaps some of our own IIT engineers
>> here will give
>> you a hand with that, with solid examples of how I
>> was wrong.
>>
>>
>> Furthermore, just because I faulted Indian
>> engineering institutions
>> of failing to inculcate creativity among their
>> students, does not
>> necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere else
>> are CREATIVE or
>> above errors of judgement or could not be guilty of
>> incompetence.
>>
>> Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
>> engineers excelling in
>> their fields and doing highly creative work in the
>> USA or in India
>> mean that my comment is without any merit. A few
>> exceptions cannot
>> change the truths of the vast majority.
>>
>>
>> And your complaints about my references to
>> 'checks-and-balances' ,
>> which in these posts you seem to be switching back
>> and forth as being
>> the same as accountability, incorrectly; is a highly
> > misplaced one.
>> Checks and balances are critical and accountability
>> indispensable in
>> ensuring quality of performance.
>> Just because of the lapses on one or more instances
>> resulting in the
>> Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
>> mean that it is
>> absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean that
>> since such
>> absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced by
>> the percentage of
>> failures, India's situation the SAME as that of the
>> USA.
>>
>>
>> Your need to see me swallow my words therefore, is
>> rooted both on
>> your inability to look at the issues analytically as
>> well as that
>> damned English language and comprehension of it.
>>
>>
>> >First, I have ABSOLUTELY NO concern that "the
>> gullible or the
>> >uninformed may believe what you >wrote" .... you
>> know it very well
>> >that you have no takers in AssamNet.
>>
>> *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it hurts,
>> don't you :-)?
>>
>> But then again; "Moinw ki twmar paani-khwa pukhurit
>> bih dhalilw' (
>> what poison did I pour in your drinking water pond,
>> literally) to
>> cause so much displeasure ?
>>
>>
>> Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
>> failure in our local paper.
>>
>>
>http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/3075F8E291AEA88386257332000A1983?OpenDocument
>>
>> I think there is an error on the dollar amount in
>> the last sentence
>> in of that story that says: The maximum penalty for
>> a company charged
>> with manslaughter in Massachusetts is $1,000.
>>
>> The 1000 dollar limit is highly unlikely.
>>
>> I hope the above will put your suspicions about my
>> spinning that story .
>>
>> Take care.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 9:12 AM -0700 8/8/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty
>> wrote:
>> > > *** That is not something to apologize for.
>> However
>> >> some of the issues I have been speaking about
>> are
>> >> fundamental to all engineering fields. That is
>> why I
>> >> am more than a bit surprised by your
>> unfamiliarity.
>> >> It goes to show that even an IIT software
>> >> engineering graduate( that is only an educated
>> >> guess) like yourself are quite oblivious of what
>> >> other engineers do or are expected to be able to
>> do,
>> >> in the Indian context and not necessarily for
> > >> exporting them to serve the needs of developed
>> >> countries.
>> >
>> >-- Your Educated guess did not click ..... forget
>> >about IIT, strictly speaking, I am not at all a
>> >engineer .... did my B Sc from Cotton and MCA from
>> AEC
>> >and somehow managed a fairly decent job and
>> surviving
>> >...... just another "susuri musuri pass kora" case.
>>
>> >
>> >However, I do not think it takes an engineer to
>> >understand that a bridge might collapse for n -
>> number
>> >of reasons including design, poor construction,
>> poor
>> >management etc.
>> >BUT the point is with Creative Bright Engineers
>> and
>> >all the Checks and Balances that you never stop
>> >talking about none of these failures should
>> ideally
>> >happen. Since the bridge has collapsed , either
>> the
>> >engineers are NOT Bright enough OR there are some
>> >holes in your "checks & balances". Do you think
>> there
>> >are other possible reasons?
>> >
>> >I am not sure if IIT Engineers are Expected to
>> Design
>> >a Bamboo Bridge and who set those expectations.
>> >Unfortunately, India does not run on expectations
>> set
>> >by you. As I mentioned earlier, you have NO
>> knowledge
>> >on today's India. Because these Engineers did not
>> >listen to your suggestions, the Indian GDP is
>> >improving leaps and bounds.
>> >Santanu-da can probably explain why the US Dollar
>> is
>> >sharply getting devalued against Indian Rupee.
>> >
>> >> That brings us back to your questions and
>> responses.
>> >> They are all over the place, and while I can and
>> >> would be pleased to respond them, it would be
>> far
>> >> better to first pin down WHAT exactly it is that
>> you
>> >> are trying to prove or disprove with your
>> >> inquisition.
>> >>
>> >> I realize you disagree with some of what I
>> wrote.
>> >> But it also musty have caused you concern that
>> the
>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
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