[Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse

Thu Aug 9 14:29:09 PDT 2007

> *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
> anyone can show 
> how Indian trained engineers have
> found creative solutions to India's many problems
> and demonstrated 
> their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
> have been in an 
> Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
> And I know 
> exactly what goes on there.

Who do you think is working on building Dams,
Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ?  Who do you
think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
Creative)
Who do you think has automated the banking system in
Indian Banks, many of which now offer services better
then US banks?
Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
(against T+3 in US)?
How do you think India has advanced over past several
years without Creative Contributions from Indian
Engineers?

No wonder then that the only creativity
> and ingenuity 
> coming out of Indian engineers are to be found
> abroad.

You are again way-off the reality.  There are a good
number of Creative Engineers who decided to work
towards a better India.  Also,  in recent years, we
have been seeing a significant amount of reverse brain
drain.

as in every other field,
> remains in its 
> education system, one founded on rote learning.

"as in other fields" ---- have you heard of "medical
tourism" ?  why do you think people from western
developed countries rely on Indian Doctors for their
major surgeries ..... cost ???  But will you allow a
layman to have a heart surgery on you even if it is
free of cost ??
Why do you think American Instituions of Higher
Education never stop praising Indian students ?  What
am I missing ??

> *** That comes out only when challenged. There is
> corruption 
> everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the
> degrees.  And how it 
> is rewarded or punished by society.

Tell us how is it punished by society?  In Big Dig,
for example,  we see that the middle rung of
management being punished ... is it not the same in
India ?  The top rung goes scott free in most cases,
everywhere.
As for degrees ..... agreed there is variation but
your comment --"sometimes corruption--as in India," 
can equally be replaced with "sometimes corruption--as
in US",

> >If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
> non-Creative 
> >Engineers everywhere, the debate >ends
> 
> 
> *** Except in the percentages of the blend.

and how do you decide on the percentage .... what is
your secret tool !

> >How dod you say that your version is the "truth"
> ???
> 
> *** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a
> few examples of 
> Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to
> its national, 
> forget humanity's,  good or well being.

Showed enough ....  from Power Sector to banking.  Now
it is your turn to DEFEND  your "truth".

> >Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.

> *** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an
> absurd level and 
> then attempting to demolish it.

You are the master of such tricks ...I am yet to learn
basics :-)

However,  why do you think Harvard wants to learn
about Supply Chain from Mumbai Dabbawalas?

Have you ever seen Mumbai suburban trains?  The
overcrowded trains runs every 4 - 5 minutes and shares
the same track as long distance trains.  
The trains maintain exceptional punctuality and rarely
have collissions.  Compare this to what I found in
Boston ---- 3 avoidable accidents (human error)  in
last one year and numerous cancellations and late
running of trains. In one year, there have been at
least 30 occassions where trains were running
significantly late and there are at least 10 - 15
occassions where the train was cancelled.  And
remember,  these trains DO NOT share the tracks with
long distance trains nor are the frequency as high as
that in Mumbai.

BTW   where do you stand on "Big Dig" .... human error
or corruption

--- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:

> >  >since it was YOU who made the comment the burden
> is on
> >you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
> >examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in
> India
> >are shining in India and abroad.
> 
> 
> 
> *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
> anyone can show 
> how Indian trained engineers have
> found creative solutions to India's many problems
> and demonstrated 
> their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
> have been in an 
> Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
> And I know 
> exactly what goes on there.  I also know that they
> have not changed 
> in their fundamental approach. The result is all
> over to see.
> 
> That is however the not to suggest that the scarcity
> of Indian 
> engineering ingenuity or creativity is entirely of
> training origin. 
> There are other factors, most notably India's
> governance and its 
> culture: Of stifling innovation, of discouraging
> ingenuity and of the 
> inability to see, recognize and reward innovation,
> ingenuity and 
> creativity. No wonder then that the only creativity
> and ingenuity 
> coming out of Indian engineers are to be found
> abroad.
> 
> But the main reason for the absence of engineering
> ingenuity and 
> creativity in India , as in every other field,
> remains in its 
> education system, one founded on rote learning.
> 
> 
> 
> >If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
> non-Creative 
> >Engineers everywhere, the debate >ends
> 
> 
> *** Except in the percentages of the blend.
> 
> 
> >How dod you say that your version is the "truth"
> ???
> 
> *** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a
> few examples of 
> Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to
> its national, 
> forget humanity's,  good or well being.
> 
> 
> >No one probably claims that India's situation is
> SAME as that of US.
> 
> *** That comes out only when challenged. There is
> corruption 
> everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the
> degrees.  And how it 
> is rewarded or punished by society.
> 
> Bridges  fail both in India and the USA. But when
> one attempts to 
> place both in the same degree, then one is lying
> thru one's teeth.
> 
> 
> >Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.
> 
> *** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an
> absurd level and 
> then attempting to demolish it.
> 
> 
> >I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
> tricks from you :)
> 
> 
> *** I was just being facetious. It does not hurt me
> one bit to be 
> told how no one pays any attention to what I have to
> say.  The proof 
> is in the responses they evoke :-).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 12:19 PM -0700 8/9/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty
> wrote:
> >C'da
> >
> >
> >>  Is it what I said about Indian engineering
> colleges
> >>  not training
> >>  their students to be creative ? If that is what
> >>  bothers you, why
> >>  don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
> >>  statement? That would
> >>  put me in my place.
> >
> >since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is
> on
> >you to proved the point.  We have shown numerous
> >examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in
> India
> >are shining in India and abroad.
> >
> >
> >
> >>  Furthermore, just because  I faulted Indian
> >>  engineering institutions
> >>  of failing to inculcate creativity among their
> >>  students, does not
> >>  necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere
> else
> >>  are CREATIVE or
> >>  above errors of judgement or could not be guilty
> of
> >>  incompetence.
> >>
> >
> >If you admit that there is a blend of  Creative and
> >non-Creative Engineers everywhere, the debate ends
> >
> >
> >>  Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
> >>  engineers excelling in
> >>  their fields and doing highly creative work in
> the
> >>  USA  or in India
> >>  mean that my comment is without any merit.
> >A few
> >>  exceptions cannot
> >>  change the truths of the vast majority.
> >
> >To prove merit of your statement YOU need to
> support
> >your statement with documentation.  How dod you say
> >that your version is the "truth" ???
> >Indian students including Graduate engineers are
> >highly acclaimed in many US institutes.  Guess
> under
> >which educational system they had their basic
> >education ? 
> >
> >
> >>  Just because of the lapses on one or more
> instances
> >  > resulting in the
> >>  Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
> >>  mean that it is
> >>  absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean
> that
> >>  since such
> >>  absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced
> by
> >>  the percentage of
> >>  failures, India's situation the SAME as that of
> the
> >>  USA.
> >
> >No one probably claims that India's situation is
> SAME
> >as that of US.  There are areas where India is
> worse
> >then US and there are areas where US is worse then
> >India. However,  unlike your tall claims,  "checks
> and
> >balances"  DO fail in US too;  corruption is NOT
> >something which is absent in US.
> >Similarly,  not everything in India is bad.  India
> is
> >developing fast and there are improvements in
> >different areas but I agree,  with eyes closed by
> >India-Hate, it is difficult to see.
> >
> >>  *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it
> hurts,
> >>  don't you  :-)?
> >
> >I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
> >tricks from you :)
> >
> >>  Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
> >>  failure in our local paper.
> >>
> >>
> 
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