[Assam] More on Minneapolis Collapse
Chan Mahanta
cmahanta at charter.net
Thu Aug 9 15:22:29 PDT 2007
> >Who do you think is working on building Dams,
>Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ? Who do you
>think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
>you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
>Creative)
>Who do you think has automated the banking system in
>Indian Banks, many of which now offer services better
>then US banks?
>Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
>Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
>(against T+3 in US)?
>How do you think India has advanced over past several
>years without Creative Contributions from Indian
Engineers?
*** What were the ingenuity or creative aspects of these so called
achievements of Indian engineering?
How does someone who do not have a shelter over their heads or get
two meals a day or cannot send their children to school or do not a
get a liter of safe drinking water a week benefit from T2
stock-exchange ( whatever that might mean) that is the envy of the
USA.
And how many of the above were the result of original Indian
engineering creativity?
*** I am beginning to wonder whether you understands what creativity
means. Perhaps that is where the problem is.
>You are again way-off the reality. There are a good number of
>Creative Engineers who decided to >work towards a better India.
>Also, in recent years, wehave been seeing a significant amount
>of >reverse braindrain.
*** I will up you one on that. I would bet there are more than a
'number of ' creative engineers. I would hope anyway. Out of a
billion people, if they have only a 'number' of them, that would be
quite a downer.
But the question is why not a whole lot more than that who are at
least as good as the Chinese or the Russians in contributing creative
solutions to their unique national needs and welfare?
At any event, why don't you educate us by naming a few whose
contributions you would consider creative and not merely a me-too
versions of others' creations?
I can't care less about reverse brain-drain. Or the straight one. But
if a nation spends its meager resources producing engineers and
scientists and what-have-you, only to have them go serve the needs of
developed countries, performing routine duties or even become
creatively; instead of producing those who are contributing to the
national good creatively and with ingenuity, something is terribly
broken, isn't it? More so when that is happening at the cost of
leaving millions back who do not even get a halfway decent primary
education, or for that matter any education.
> >"as in other fields" ---- have you heard of "medical tourism" ?
>why do you think people from western
>developed countries rely on Indian Doctors for their major surgeries
>..... cost ??? But will you allow a
layman to have a heart surgery on you even if it is free of cost ??
Why do you think American Instituions of Higher Education never stop
praising Indian students ? What am I missing ??
*** What you are missing is the essence of creativity and ingenuity.
Not to imply Indians are incapable of such creativity. It is quite
the opposite. They can be as good as anybody else. But their
education and training do not inculcate ingenuity and creativity.
That is why we see so many blossom ONLY after they LEAVE India. That
is the difference.
> >Tell us how is it punished by society? In Big Dig, for example,
>we see that the middle rung of
>management being punished ...
*** Actually no one is punished YET for any wrong-doing at the Big
Dig. It is still being litigated as the news-clip I posted earlier
shows I will give you a small example: In the eighties, an interior
bridge/walkway over the Lobby at the Hyatt Regency hotel in Kansas
City collapsed from dancing and partying guests, killing hundreds.
Next day structural engineers' and (architects' too) liability
insurance rates shot up thru the roof, and has not yet come back
down. For years I, a tiny operator, have been paying far more in
liability insurance rates than a practising internist would be. I
don't know who else had to pay or how. But that was a lesson not to
be forgotten--about what it might mean to be sloppy with one's work.
The highly respected structural engineering firm of course went out
of business immediately. The top man, if I am not mistaken, fled
the country. I don't know if he was ever brought to justice or what
happened to him. But regardless, it changed the ways things are done,
dramatically.
Now you tell us how such a tragedy has changed Indian engineering or
governance. Unless of course none such ever happened in India. Tell
what institutional deterrence i there.
It was only a couple of weeks back, the equivalent of the FDA
director of China was executed, for taking bribes of less than a
million dollar. It was a very severe punishment. But his
dereliction of duty led to many many deaths of children around the
world, not to mention undocumented damages to lives and grievous
injury to Chinese Industry's goodwill. That is deterrence. Tell us
about India's .
>Have you ever seen Mumbai suburban trains? The overcrowded trains
>runs every 4 - 5 minutes and >shares the same track as long distance
>trains.
*** And contrast that with the number of railroad accidents all over
India with the annual death toll from it. I would however NOT compare
that with the US -- for obvious reasons.
>BTW where do you stand on "Big Dig" .... human error or corruption
*** It is quite immaterial. I have no way of determining what
actually happened. We will just have to wait for the verdict to come
out. But regardless, somebody will be paying. And that will be a
deterrence.
At 2:29 PM -0700 8/9/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty wrote:
> > *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
>> anyone can show
>> how Indian trained engineers have
>> found creative solutions to India's many problems
>> and demonstrated
>> their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
>> have been in an
>> Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
>> And I know
> > exactly what goes on there.
>
>
>Who do you think is working on building Dams,
>Skyscrappers, Power Plants etc in India ? Who do you
>think is teaching in IIT's producing Engineers like
>you (I am assuming you consider yourself to be
>Creative)
>Who do you think has automated the banking system in
>Indian Banks, many of which now offer services better
>then US banks?
>Who do you think automated the operations in Indian
>Stock Exchange which now operates in a T+2 mode
>(against T+3 in US)?
>How do you think India has advanced over past several
>years without Creative Contributions from Indian
>Engineers?
>
>
>
>No wonder then that the only creativity
>> and ingenuity
>> coming out of Indian engineers are to be found
>> abroad.
>
>You are again way-off the reality. There are a good
>number of Creative Engineers who decided to work
>towards a better India. Also, in recent years, we
>have been seeing a significant amount of reverse brain
>drain.
>
>
>as in every other field,
>> remains in its
>> education system, one founded on rote learning.
>
>"as in other fields" ---- have you heard of "medical
>tourism" ? why do you think people from western
>developed countries rely on Indian Doctors for their
>major surgeries ..... cost ??? But will you allow a
>layman to have a heart surgery on you even if it is
>free of cost ??
>Why do you think American Instituions of Higher
>Education never stop praising Indian students ? What
>am I missing ??
>
>> *** That comes out only when challenged. There is
>> corruption
>> everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the
>> degrees. And how it
>> is rewarded or punished by society.
>
>Tell us how is it punished by society? In Big Dig,
>for example, we see that the middle rung of
>management being punished ... is it not the same in
>India ? The top rung goes scott free in most cases,
>everywhere.
>As for degrees ..... agreed there is variation but
>your comment --"sometimes corruption--as in India,"
>can equally be replaced with "sometimes corruption--as
>in US",
>
>
>> >If you admit that there is a blend of Creative and
>> non-Creative
>> >Engineers everywhere, the debate >ends
>>
>>
>> *** Except in the percentages of the blend.
>
>and how do you decide on the percentage .... what is
>your secret tool !
>
>
>
>> >How dod you say that your version is the "truth"
>> ???
>>
>> *** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a
>> few examples of
>> Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to
>> its national,
>> forget humanity's, good or well being.
>
>
>Showed enough .... from Power Sector to banking. Now
>it is your turn to DEFEND your "truth".
>
>
>> >Similarly, not everything in India is bad.
>
>> *** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an
>> absurd level and
>> then attempting to demolish it.
>
>
>You are the master of such tricks ...I am yet to learn
>basics :-)
>
>However, why do you think Harvard wants to learn
>about Supply Chain from Mumbai Dabbawalas?
>
>Have you ever seen Mumbai suburban trains? The
>overcrowded trains runs every 4 - 5 minutes and shares
>the same track as long distance trains.
>The trains maintain exceptional punctuality and rarely
>have collissions. Compare this to what I found in
>Boston ---- 3 avoidable accidents (human error) in
>last one year and numerous cancellations and late
>running of trains. In one year, there have been at
>least 30 occassions where trains were running
>significantly late and there are at least 10 - 15
>occassions where the train was cancelled. And
>remember, these trains DO NOT share the tracks with
>long distance trains nor are the frequency as high as
>that in Mumbai.
>
>BTW where do you stand on "Big Dig" .... human error
>or corruption
>
>
>--- Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>> > >since it was YOU who made the comment the burden
>> is on
>> >you to proved the point. We have shown numerous
>> >examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in
>> India
>> >are shining in India and abroad.
>>
>>
>>
>> *** The proof is in the product or' performance. If
>> anyone can show
>> how Indian trained engineers have
>> found creative solutions to India's many problems
>> and demonstrated
>> their ingenuity, the question would not arise. I
>> have been in an
>> Indian engineering institution. Am a product of one.
>> And I know
>> exactly what goes on there. I also know that they
>> have not changed
>> in their fundamental approach. The result is all
>> over to see.
>>
>> That is however the not to suggest that the scarcity
>> of Indian
>> engineering ingenuity or creativity is entirely of
>> training origin.
>> There are other factors, most notably India's
>> governance and its
>> culture: Of stifling innovation, of discouraging
>> ingenuity and of the
>> inability to see, recognize and reward innovation,
>> ingenuity and
>> creativity. No wonder then that the only creativity
>> and ingenuity
>> coming out of Indian engineers are to be found
>> abroad.
>>
>> But the main reason for the absence of engineering
>> ingenuity and
>> creativity in India , as in every other field,
>> remains in its
>> education system, one founded on rote learning.
>>
>>
>>
>> >If you admit that there is a blend of Creative and
>> non-Creative
>> >Engineers everywhere, the debate >ends
>>
>>
>> *** Except in the percentages of the blend.
>>
>>
>> >How dod you say that your version is the "truth"
>> ???
>>
>> *** It is in what is there for all to see. Show us a
>> few examples of
>> Indian engineering ingenuity that has contributed to
>> its national,
>> forget humanity's, good or well being.
>>
>>
>> >No one probably claims that India's situation is
>> SAME as that of US.
>>
>> *** That comes out only when challenged. There is
>> corruption
>> everywhere, sure, but the difference lies in the
>> degrees. And how it
>> is rewarded or punished by society.
>>
>> Bridges fail both in India and the USA. But when
>> one attempts to
>> place both in the same degree, then one is lying
>> thru one's teeth.
>>
>>
>> >Similarly, not everything in India is bad.
>>
>> *** Same old trick--of exaggerating the point to an
>> absurd level and
>> then attempting to demolish it.
>>
>>
>> >I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
>> tricks from you :)
>>
>>
>> *** I was just being facetious. It does not hurt me
>> one bit to be
>> told how no one pays any attention to what I have to
>> say. The proof
>> is in the responses they evoke :-).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 12:19 PM -0700 8/9/07, Krishnendu Chakraborty
>> wrote:
>> >C'da
>> >
>> >
>> >> Is it what I said about Indian engineering
>> colleges
>> >> not training
>> >> their students to be creative ? If that is what
>> >> bothers you, why
>> >> don't YOU tell us HOW I was wrong about that
>> >> statement? That would
>> >> put me in my place.
>> >
>> >since it was YOU who made the comment the burden is
> > on
>> >you to proved the point. We have shown numerous
>> >examples of how Indian Engineers who studied in
>> India
>> >are shining in India and abroad.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Furthermore, just because I faulted Indian
>> >> engineering institutions
>> >> of failing to inculcate creativity among their
>> >> students, does not
>> >> necessarily mean that ALL engineers everywhere
>> else
>> >> are CREATIVE or
>> >> above errors of judgement or could not be guilty
>> of
>> >> incompetence.
>> >>
>> >
>> >If you admit that there is a blend of Creative and
>> >non-Creative Engineers everywhere, the debate ends
>> >
>> >
>> >> Nor does the fact of one or even many Indian
>> >> engineers excelling in
>> >> their fields and doing highly creative work in
>> the
>> >> USA or in India
>> >> mean that my comment is without any merit.
> > >A few
>> >> exceptions cannot
>> >> change the truths of the vast majority.
>> >
>> >To prove merit of your statement YOU need to
>> support
>> >your statement with documentation. How dod you say
>> >that your version is the "truth" ???
>> >Indian students including Graduate engineers are
>> >highly acclaimed in many US institutes. Guess
>> under
>> >which educational system they had their basic
>> >education ?
>> >
>> >
>> >> Just because of the lapses on one or more
>> instances
>> > > resulting in the
>> >> Minneapolis bridge failure for example, does not
>> >> mean that it is
>> >> absent everywhere in the USA. Nor does it mean
>> that
>> >> since such
>> >> absence is widespread in India, as is evidenced
>> by
>> >> the percentage of
>> >> failures, India's situation the SAME as that of
>> the
>> >> USA.
>> >
>> >No one probably claims that India's situation is
>> SAME
>> >as that of US. There are areas where India is
>> worse
>> >then US and there are areas where US is worse then
>> >India. However, unlike your tall claims, "checks
>> and
>> >balances" DO fail in US too; corruption is NOT
>> >something which is absent in US.
>> >Similarly, not everything in India is bad. India
>> is
>> >developing fast and there are improvements in
>> >different areas but I agree, with eyes closed by
>> >India-Hate, it is difficult to see.
>> >
>> >> *** You sure know where to hit a guy where it
>> hurts,
>> >> don't you :-)?
>> >
>> >I have been in Assamnet long enough to learn a few
>> >tricks from you :)
>> >
>> >> Finally the following latest news on the Big Dig
>> >> failure in our local paper.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives
>you all the tools to get online.
>http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.assamnet.org/pipermail/assam-assamnet.org/attachments/20070809/fde41a68/attachment.htm>
More information about the Assam
mailing list