[Assam] Math First: Harvard & UVa study on college science-- Correction! success

Tue Jul 31 09:46:44 PDT 2007

>Compare that with a sharp American highschool graduate who will get  far higher starting salary than a graduate engineer or even one with a post  graduate  degree. And his status in society would not be >any less than that of the engineer next door. He will be coaching the kids' soccer team, will run for elective office, serve as a board member of the local hospital foundation and be a respected elder of the l>ocal church. And he keeps industry running smoothly.

.............and when he turns 40, if he wants to make more money or is ambituous enough to go up on the career ladder, he would join a community college. 

Who is happier or which choice is better? no telling! 

“In order to make spiritual progress you must be patient like a tree and humble like a blade of grass”
- Lakshmana

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:28:04 -0500To: umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu; mridul_mb at yahoo.com; dilipdeka at yahoo.com; assam at assamnet.orgFrom: cmahanta at charter.netSubject: Re: [Assam] Math First: Harvard & UVa study on college science-- Correction! success

I dropped a critical qualification below:

>Compare that with a sharp American highschool graduate" TRAINED as an ELECTRICIAN, or a PIEFITTER or a CARPENTER who will get  --------

There is nothing wrong with an engineer becoming a 'bania'. There is no moral, social or cultural prohibition against that. Nor is it a sin of any kind for a company to hire top engineering graduates to man call centers. After all, even those with engineering training need to make a living.

The issue is with PUBLIC funding of engineering training, which of necessity, is far more expensive than some of the other disciplines of  learning. If all that expenditure at the IITs turn out stockbrokers for
US investment companies, somebody is losing out huge. Guess WHO!

Indian engineers, by and large cannot fix a leaky plumbing pipe, repair an electric motor,  build or even design a bamboo bridge or are trained to design a better mousetrap. India needs far more people trained for these tasks than turn out engineers to man call centers. But these jobs, trades will not attract the able, because of :

        *** Indian social stigma . You are going to be a plumber? Horror of horrors. Oh, his son
        is JUST an electrician. What a shame. That is all he became with a first division at HS
        and two letters!

        *** Refusal to compensate adequately for such services. An engineer, by social status
        ( not by skill now) will always be paid a far higher compensation than an electrician or
        a mechanic.

So there is NO incentive for the able to enter a field that not only serves ones's economic needs, but also helps nation building.  They best of the lot therefore will automatically enter the  legendary Indian 'babudom', producing little, never having a chance to utilizing their creative abilities or productivity. But at least their economic well-being will be guaranteed.

Compare that with a sharp American highschool graduate who will get  far higher starting salary than a graduate engineer or even one with a post  graduate  degree. And his status in society would not be any less than that of the engineer next door. He will be coaching the kids' soccer team, will run for elective office, serve as a board member of the local hospital foundation and be a respected elder of the local church. And he keeps industry running smoothly.

So the problem is PUBLIC POLICY! Governmental policy. And social/cultural  attitudes.

At 10:05 PM -0700 7/30/07, umesh sharma wrote:
Mridul-da,Hmmm I can see where the anti-entrepreneurship attitude is leading to.  Perhaps you have heard that engineers are also becoming CEOs  --IITians  have become phonemal  investmant bankers -helped by the fact that not only they are good number crunchers but alo they understand engineering companies better . You might have heard of one Rajat Gupta who was an IITian , Harvard MBA and lead McKinsey -a company which is into "bania" like activities.UmeshMridul Bhuyan <mridul_mb at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dilip Da,

My regards to you. Yes, I live in Gurgaon, in India.

In private sector, all the big names like Reliance, AREVA, ABB, SIEMENS, Crompton Greaves... etc are employing engineers but not because they need them all, but due to the fact thay are available at a cheaper price. The call centres are also hiring engineers because they are available at the same price tag as that of an BA/BSc/B.Com. Being in Gurgaon, I have come across about 10/12 engineers from Assam (from our kharkhoowa engineering colleges), who are working in the call centres such as American Express, citibank etc. In call centres of Wipro, IBM, DELL... finding engineers is understandable, however, I doubt what type of specialist jobs they are doing, which can't be handled by a software programmer. Recently, I met one first class mechanical engineer from AEC (that too with very high scores), working in American Express, doing customer service. Let's talk about our great 'Bania' Company Reliance Energy (Engaged in distribution of power in portion of Delhi). They would've employed the cheapest available non-technical manpower, had it not been for the high voltage circuit breakers, transformers, they have to handle. But they are now recruiting engineers only for almost all category of jobs except for finance, because the supply is abundant. You can get a fresh engineer for Rs.3.0 lakhs per annum, but a MBA costs almost twice that amount. They transform the Engineer to an excellent manager with their bania expertise.:). So, tell me how creativity comes in to the picture. As pointed out by Uttam, Private sector is all about acquiring max. ouput with minimum cost. Hope, the picture is clearer now.

Regards

MridulDilip/Dil Deka <dilipdeka at yahoo.com> wrote:
Mridul,
How does it shake out if you draw a line between the public and private sectors? If the private sector also is employing engineers just for the sake of providing employment or because there is a position open for an engineering degree holder, then there is a big problem.
I don't know whether you live in India or not. I'd like to hear how it is in the Indian private sector.
Dilip DekaChan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
At 10:04 PM -0700 7/29/07, Mridul Bhuyan wrote:
As far as engineers employed in India, I am not sure if being creative or not makes any difference. Regarding most of the engineering jobs in India, except in a few cases, I am not sure, if Engineers are required at all :)

Mridul Bhuyan

**** You are sooo right Mridul!

What our NRI friends can't quite deal with is the realities of India. They need to keep up those appearances, NOT because they  do not know, but it is from their own personal insecurities about who or what they identify with.

c-da

Dilip/Dil Deka <dilipdeka at yahoo.com> wrote:
Umesh,
Not every engineer needs to be creative. However every engineer should be good in math, just to survive in the field. The design engineers need to know what is behind the softwares they use now a days to solve engineering problems.
There are functions in engineering where a person can contribute without being creative in the real sense of the word. I have spent 30+ years in the field, including management of engineers, I should know something about engineers by now.
A request to engineers in India - please speak up.
Dilipdaumesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com> wrote:
C-da,But the article was about doing intensive coursework in math at high school levele - not at an engineering college.***But there is more to it: Ability to do good math, by and of itself, does not guarantee success as an engineer or scientist. One can do well in the academic exams, can even get good jobs, not just as engineers, but in a lot of other fields, but real engineering also requires creativity -- something Indian engineering schools rarely help develop, while not everyone is endowed with an ability or have the aptitude to develop itUmeshChan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
At 1:33 PM -0700 7/27/07, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote:
Netters with interest in science will find this article interesting. Math is used in all sciences, so obviously good fundamental knowledge in math helps students in all branches of science. A good grasp of math in high school helps engineering students as well, across the board.

*** And that is exactly why it is so essential to have a sound primary education where math fundamentals  take root or die. If you look at the percentage of students in Assam who have a decent knowledge of math fundamentals, you will know why so few excel in science, technology etc.

But there is more to it: Ability to do good math, by and of itself, does not guarantee success as an engineer or scientist. One can do well in the academic exams, can even get good jobs, not just as engineers, but in a lot of other fields, but real engineering also requires creativity -- something Indian engineering schools rarely help develop, while not everyone is endowed with an ability or have the aptitude to develop it .

Dilip

==================================================================umesh sharma <jaipurschool at yahoo.com> wrote:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/news_and_events/releases/science_07262007.htmlUmesh SharmaWashington D.C.1-202-215-4328 [Cell]Ed.M. - International Education PolicyHarvard Graduate School of Education,Harvard University,Class of 2005http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/

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