[Assam] Big-lie; GC; H1B innovation? One-Horse US Univs; Loan Crisis Hits the MBA World

[umesh sharma]

Krishnendu-da,

I will start with the big-lie thing you mentioned.  Does make one go on the defensive - to the visa officer you said you are going to return to India after studies but you never went back!! How disgusting!! A Harvard grad telling a lie. Unbelievable!! An MIT grad telling lies . How offensive.!!

How offensive that 20,000 US studentsgrads lie every year while applying for H1B visas!!!  How offensive that 500,000 H1B visa holders from India have lied and are in the line to get Green Cards - even though their non-immigrant visas (just like F1 student visas) were awarded on the understanding that the applicant would return to their country, whose passport they hold. 

Krishnendu-da, I believe that you never came to the US on non-immigrant student or work visas - since you shame those who seek to remain here after their non-immigrant visas are over. I wont quote Jesus in seeking anyone who has never told a lie - unlike Raja Harishchandra - but I would say that telling a lie which does't hurt anyone is not sinful. If the lie were so egregious then the US immigration would not entertain such applications by US based F1 or H1B visa holders - who seek to change their status (F1 to H1B) or (H1B to Green Card). Even the J1 visa holders - exchange researchers (who are required by their visa category to return to their coutry and work for atleast 3 years -can seek exemption from Indian govt and remain here -- US govt allows it becos US needs J1 holding researchers ). The lie is overlooked by the govt itself  becos it is in the interest of US.  The requirement to make people come up with evidence of return was also by US
 govt, its overlooking is also by US rules.  

The US F1 student visa form never asks anyone to state in writing or take an oath of honor that the applicant vows to return to their country or atleast get out of US once his/her education is over. If a student visa applicant were to check a box that s/he agrees to leave US - then it would be perjury if s/he got a change of status to H1B and remained in the US. When you come to think of it - I never told a lie!! When my F1 student visa expired I left the US - stayed in Vancouver, Canada for a month with a Harvard classmate's family and got H1B stamping and came back to work. Was that a lie? 



> have explained why the quota got filled up. It was because of

applicants who filed multiple H1s through shady consulting companies

having no real job. Did you visit any of the immigration sites. the

>murthy.com will be a good start





>### I thought the US congress found that multiple H1Bs were filed
by INDIAN firms - same firm - different H1B applications - and thus
restrictions were placed.



*** The restrictions restrict multiple H1 for same person by same
company. It does not restrict a candidate to pay 3 companies and get an
H1 filed by all 3 companies for this candidate. This chokes the system.


%%% Who allowed it? Not the Indian students in the US. Who made such rules?



>### The criterion for deciding whether the UNIV is doing cutting
edge research - was any Nobel prize winners -- it was not for a
candidate applying for H1B - a Nobel prize winner can directly sponsor
herself for a greencard -- no employer or >H1B needed!! Same for
guys like Oscar winners.



**** It was you who said that Researches from Tier 3 univ yields to
Nobel Prize. So, I thought you will know some such examples. Actually,
you need to clarify on your tier 1, 2, 3 and which schools belong to
each group.

 
%%%   http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/3749
This is from George Mason Univ - 3 miles from my house - it is Tier 3 - as per US News and World Report - whose rankings are respected and debated by all top Univs incl IVY League ones. 
They have a professor who won a Nobel prize for economics  in 2002. Another one won it in 1986. http://ices.gmu.edu/article.php/396.htmlNo Indian professor ever won a Nobel prize - so their research is not even Tier 3 level -incl those of IITs.



KC: Second, for a GC you never need an H1. Technically a GC even in EB3 can
be filed by an employer even if you have never been in US. You can go
for consular processing, get your GC and come to US to work. 



You are right on other aspect -- a Nobel Prize winner (or someone close
to that) can ofcourse self file for GC. But you need not be that close.
How the lawyer puts your case often makes or breaks the case. A friend
of mine got his GC through this route and he was not within 10000 miles
of Nobel Prize. What he told me is , his lawyer presented before CIS
that he just missed the Nobel Prize by an inch :) You however do need
research, file for patents, need recco, publications etc. 



%%% Thanks to this discussion I ave decided not to waste any more time and apply for Gren Card on EB 3 category thru my current employer. though it may take another 8 years to get it. Thanks for confirming that one doesn't have to remain in the US for green card processing  -  even a Oxford educated lawyer friend (from school days) did not recall that . But I confirmed from many people - it is true. Lawyers don't knwo everything!!!




>###Ha Ha Ha. You mean just becos I managed to get a student loan to
pay for studies - I would get a loan to sit on the >bench. Thats
unrealistic. Some master's grad might do that --- but I think the bench
grouse is mostly against INDIAN >companies - as per various US
programmers guild forums - that they bring in H1Bs and put them on the
bench and then >fiercely compete to get contracts . 



**** It is more likely that a person who has invested $50K for
education will go any extent to be in US. Further, who do you think
will have that much money to pay for H1 and survive during bench period
-- one who can afford to pay $50K for education or someone from a third
world country who could never afford to get that amount either from
parents or not have collatarels for loan. What is more realistic ? A
H1B from India can sit in India till he/she get a project and need not
come here and sit on bench to start with. Did you visit the immigration
forums ? The initial bench period is mostly observed either those from
F1 -- H1 OR from H4 -- H1. For others, the initial bench is pretty low
.... it becomes more of a problem when they are in between projects. 

The initial bench suggests that the employer filed for an H1 without
having a real job for the employee. It really does not matter if the
company is Indian/American/British or Cambodian what matters is -- 1)
If the candidate PAID to get the H1 filed (Illegal) ; 2) If the
candidate is sitting on bench without pay (Illegal); 3) If the
candidate forged his experience (happens also to US Grads/Under) or
education (not posible for US Grads/Under).

Further, the company need not BRING H1 from outside for any/all of
these violations , these violations can very well be made for/by F1 -
H1 candidates.

%%% You agree that it is difficult for US grads to forge their edu degrees - but easier for non US degree holders - ground for preference to US grads!! seeking H1Bs









>### I think $12,000 is not a big amount for any middle class family
staying in even B class towns in India. One can >easily get loans
even in India against house etc - and I think even without collatoral
for that amount. It was not a choice. 



**** $12000 may not be a big amount for you but it is still a big
amount for many Indians. For getting loan you need a collateral which
again is not available to MANY. You need to be from at least an upper
middle class either to have $12000 (Rs 500000) for an investment
towards H1/GC or to get a loan against a collateral.

Why I say your hrdship is by choice --- being from an upper middle
class family in India, you could have led a decent life in India ,
studied in a good college/university and bagged a good job , for much
less then the amount you spent for your education in US. It was your
choice to study in US use that as a step to go for H1 and probably GC .
So your hardship was by choice.


%%% You are right. I chose to make that decision to secure a student loan to study. Just like many people I know chose to buy expensive cars on credit - American style!! However, you might agree with many that investment in one's education is the best one. I think that way. I think it is better to educate one's sons and daughters than to spend money on their dowry etc. I know many people in my family circle who spent $30,000 for their daughter's marriage. If someone marries his daughter to an IAS or IPS officer in Indian govt the dowry itself is Rs 1 crore ($200,000) and that is 5 yearold info .


>### A deserving candidate is she who has the skills/experience. It
does not matter what her family background is. She may be a princess or
from a slumdog. As long as she has the skills she should get priority.
Thus, my contention that a US master's degree holder is more skilled
than one without it. 



**** Right a deserving candidate is one who has skills/experience . But
you missed out an important point -- skills and experience in the field
where you have a vacancy. So for example if the job demands (say)
Mecahnical Engineering an ordinary BE (Mechanical) from a third world
country is more skilled then a PhD in IT from Harvard. 

That's exactly where these shady consulting companies come to the
picture ... luring non-IT US Grads and UnderGrads for a crash course in
IT and trying to fit them in IT. See some immigration portals and Ads
in Sulekha and you will get to the bottom of problem. Not to say there
are no requirements in other fields but the majority opening are in IT.



%%% I see your main grouse is against the IT professionals who lack the degrees in their field. Thats exactly my point. All the more reason to give preference in H1B visa applications to those who have relevant US degrees - most IT people I know here are US grads with substantial coursework in IT . Give preference to them , just like give preference to me for education jobs - over someone who is an IT expert with no degree in education.
I remember a discussion I had soon after I came into the real world (inUS) when a senior guy told me that I was in the wrong field. If I were in IT field he could have got me a job and visa sponsorship.


KC: Further to that, a low flier from a US school with no experience can
still be less skilled then a high flier from an Indian college and/or
significant experience. So US School is NOT a single criteria for
skills/experience. 



Rather then the US/non-US debate you (and other US Grads) should direct
your discussions on how to clean the CIS process to stop multiple H1
filing, use of fake education/experience, stop H1s for fictitious and
non-existing jobs etc. 



%%% You are right just a US degree is no guarantee of great expertise. But an IT master's grad from an accredited US univ is likely to be better than all Indian IT master's grads -as we discussed only a few Indian undergrad programs are world class - master's and PhD are not.  


>Further, for H1B one doesn't need 3 years experience if one has a 4
year bachelor degree. If one doesn't have a 4 year bachelor;s degree
then only oneneeds 3 years' experience. 



*** You are right. I missed that. 









Umesh Sharma



Washington D.C. 



1-202-215-4328 [Cell]



Ed.M. - International Education Policy

Harvard Graduate School of Education,

Harvard University,

Class of 2005



http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)



http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)









www.gse.harvard.edu/iep  (where the above 2 are used )

http://harvardscience.harvard.edu/







http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/