[Assam] H1B innovation? One-Horse US Univs; Loan Crisis Hits the MBA World

[umesh sharma]

>>Krishnendu-da,


Now I see where you are coming from: you came to the US on H1B or L1 - so ofcourse you are defending those who do the same. Just like I am supporting the cause of F1 to H1/Green Card applicants. I do have many friends who came like you did. 


>>I will start with the big-lie thing you mentioned. Does make
one go on the defensive - to the visa officer you said you are going to
return to India after studies but you never went back!! How
disgusting!! A Harvard grad telling a lie. Unbelievable!! An MIT grad
telling lies . How offensive.!!



>>How offensive that 20,000 US studentsgrads lie every year while
applying for H1B visas!!! How offensive that 500,000 H1B visa holders
from India have lied and are in the line to get Green Cards - even
though their non-immigrant visas (just like F1 student visas) were
awarded on the understanding that the applicant would return to their
country, whose passport they hold. 







***** That precisely speaks of your lack of knowledge about Immigration
matters. H1 (and L1) is a DUAL Intent visa you can have an immigrant
intent. For H1, you neither need to say that you will return to India
NOR do you need to show ties in India. In the DS-156 you need mention
if someone has applied for a GC for you. If you are applying for H1 and
mark yes in that, there is absolutely no problem . The same is not true
about F1 and B1. Why don't you educate yourself either from Murthy site
or from DOS site ? To help you, see these --  http://www.h1bvisalawyerblog.com/2008/07/dual_intent_what_do es_it_mean.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa
(Even though the H-1B visa is a non-immigrant visa, it is one of the
few visa categories recognized as dual intent, meaning an H-1B holder
can have legal immigration intent ) 



A 10 second google will give you more information on what a Dual Intent Visa is.  



So your basic premises is false. And while a Harvard Grad need to lie a
H1 holder from an Indian College which you loathe need not lie. Your
argument falls flat there.

This also shows, even a Harvard Grad might not have some knowledge which  a desi educated person may have :) 



&&& Okay I agree about the dual intent aspect. I agree that anyone who comes to the US as a researcher or student or visitor and then applies for H1B or Green Card is considered to be telling a lie.  I don't mind lying, you seem to favor  an honest , all-truthful good-for-nothing H1B applicant from home country than one who is highly skilled who told a lie to get educated and then start working.  We all have our own priorities. I feel, in Mahabharat Karna did the right thing in telling a lie about his family background to get education from Guru Parshuram - you might say that he should have been all truthful like his younger brother Yudhishthir who told only one lie in his life. Just going to Harvard does not make anyone all-knowing God :-)



>>Krishnendu-da, I believe that you never came to the US on
non-immigrant student or work visas - since you shame those who seek to
remain here after their non-immigrant visas are over. I wont quote
Jesus in seeking anyone who has never told a lie - unlike Raja
Harishchandra - but I would say that telling a lie which does't hurt
anyone is not sinful. 





***** A lie is a lie whether it harms or not. There is no one who never
told a lie but I merely pointed out that EVERY F1 who later aply for H1
starts their US journey with a lie. BTW, all my US trips have been on
H1 and L1 visas ... those which are DUAL Intent. 



&&& More power to you. I hope in your family noone ever came to the US to study. I pray to God that they never get H1B work visa or Green Card after they come to study here - so that they never have to lie.



>>The US F1 student visa form never asks anyone to state in
writing or take an oath of honor that the applicant vows to return to
their country or atleast get out of US once his/her education is over. 



*** The law clearly says that F1 CANNOT have immigrant intent while H1
can have. Further to that, during your F1 application you need to show
your ties in India. An H1 NEED NOT show those. 

Did you take an oath that you will not illegaly work in US ? No. But if
you go and work illegaly (i.e. without H1 authorization or EAD) is CIS
going to spare you -- Oh you never vowed so the law is not applicable
for you. Never expected such a hollow argument from you.



&&& US immigration accepts and allows US grads from other countries to apply for H1B - the department doesn't say -- Hey, you came to the US to study or as a visitor - you cannot apply for work here. Infact, in U Congressional hearings to these grads are actively allowed to get jobs here in the US - earlier the grads had 12 months to get H1B sponsor while doing Optional Practical Training - now since last year STEM grads get 29 months to do the same (Science, Tech, Engg, Math) - since US immigration dept found that such grads were having difficulty in securing such H1B sponsors in just 12 months. Also if they could not get thru the H1B lottery first time round they could try two times more while remaining in the US. When US is helping the US grads then why are you fuming?



>>If a student visa applicant were to check a box that s/he
agrees to leave US - then it would be perjury if s/he got a change of
status to H1B and remained in the US. When you come to think of it - I
never told a lie!! When my F1 student visa expired I left the US -
stayed in Vancouver, Canada for a month with a Harvard classmate's
family and got H1B stamping and came back to work. Was that a lie? 





********* So did your employer apply for your H1 when you were in
Canada or applied when you were still in US? Again, you have no clue on
immigration matters. The visa stamping is just an entry document. Once
you are in US, the status is what matters. If you apply for a COS
(Change of Status) when filing H1, you can start working immediately
upon receiving the approval. That includes a new I-94. Apparently, your
employer or lawyer did not tell you that.



&&& Now I think you need education in H1B filing. How could I have come back to work on H1B in October (as per law I cannot start work before October) after staying only one month in Canada - when I have to apply long before that.  Does it really matter whether I am in Canada or India or the moon when I am applying. As long as I came to the US even for a month on F1 visa - then as per you I should be banned from applying - ever - for US jobs or Green Card -- becos I would be lying!! You would rightly say, " Hey, you once told the visa offcer that you are not going to work in the US - now you are saying the reverse. You are a lier!!"   Is that practical? Just becos someone says to a visa officer, Yes I plan to come back and work in India -- ban me forever to seek other opportunities in your country. 





*** The restrictions restrict multiple H1 for same person by same

company. It does not restrict a candidate to pay 3 companies and get an

H1 filed by all 3 companies for this candidate. This chokes the system.





%%% Who allowed it? Not the Indian students in the US. Who made such rules?



***** The question is who (mis)uses these rules ? Can you vouch that
the F1s never misuses these ? I see it other way all throughout forum
postings.



&&& It should be stopped.

 

%%%    http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/ 3749

This is from George Mason Univ - 3 miles from my house - it is Tier 3 -
as per US News and World Report - whose rankings are respected and
debated by all top Univs incl IVY League ones. 

They have a professor who won a Nobel prize for economics  in 2002. Another one won it in 1986. http://ices.gmu.edu/article.php/396.htmlNo Indian professor ever won a Nobel prize - so their research is not even Tier 3 level -incl those of IITs.



***** Good find. Now I understand your list of Tier 1 through 3. Going
by this list, I can see there are roughly about 200 universities. The
20 K quota is more then sufficient to cater to foreign students from
these 200 universities and you already got that. Secondly, the
economics department of this school is ranked #1 in US south. So, while
you can justify the quality of a Economics Grad, the same may not apply
for other departments. Since a having a Nobel prize holder in the
faculty is the criteria to decide if the School offers cutting edge
research opportunity (the criteria has been set by you) , so other
departments of this school are not up to mark. 

Further, Dr Smith did his PhD from Harvard -- a tier 1 School and the
work for which he has been awarded was apparently done before he joined
Mason George.

Finally, people who do cutting edge research are perfect fit for O
Visa. Why fight for H1 with those from third grade schools ? 



&&& Dr Smith does not need any US visa. My argument was for the students who came from other countries and studied here. IIT doesn't have a single Nobel prize winning researcher - never had one.   Thus, IIT grads should stand below others above them in ranking. Current world ranking of IIT-Delhi is 154
http://www.topuniversities.com/schools/data/school_profile/default/indianinstitutetechnologydelhiiitd
 I got this thru US News and World Report
http://www.usnews.com/sections/education/worlds-best-colleges/index.html


%%% Thanks to this discussion I ave decided not to waste any more time
and apply for Gren Card on EB 3 category thru my current employer.
though it may take another 8 years to get it. Thanks for confirming
that one doesn't have to remain in the US for green card processing -
even a Oxford educated lawyer friend (from school days) did not recall
that . But I confirmed from many people - it is true. Lawyers don't
knwo everything!!!



******* Why EB3 ? A Harvard Masters surely deserves EB2 may be NIW ! An
oxford educated lawyer may not know a thing of Immigration law if
he/she does not practice immigration law. As I said in another place,
skill is relative :) 

But seriously, you can find all information on Immigration Law in the
web ... the law and various explanations by lawyers are all available
very easily.





%%% You agree that it is difficult for US grads to forge their edu
degrees - but easier for non US degree holders - ground for preference
to US grads!! seeking H1Bs



****** Hmmm... an absurd logic. What about the forged experience by US
Grads. And what about the lie on immigration intent they started their
journey in US with ? With this logic, F1's should never be granted H1
because they lied to a US Visa officer.

There are Visa Officers  whose job is to detect such forgery.  



&&& Perhaps visa officers should have lie detectors placed alongside - check the pulse and heartbeat!!  What about those who  really were telling the truth and still decided to stay on in the US and seek work.


%%% You are right. I chose to make that decision to secure a student
loan to study. Just like many people I know chose to buy expensive cars
on credit - American style!! However, you might agree with many that
investment in one's education is the best one. I think that way. I
think it is better to educate one's sons and daughters than to spend
money on their dowry etc. I know many people in my family circle who
spent $30,000 for their daughter's marriage. If someone marries his
daughter to an IAS or IPS officer in Indian govt the dowry itself is Rs
1 crore ($200,000) and that is 5 yearold info .



****** Apart from student loan, you took money from your parents -- a
luxury not many can afford. You also had the collateral not many have.
And you have once again established with your info on dowry in your
family circle that you do not belong to lower middle class. 

And since YOU decided to be in US, pursuing your H1/Green Card dream,
you gave up some luxury to get it. So why are you whining?

While investment in educatoin is surely the best, MANY (not all) of the
F1s actually do not invest in education -- they invest towards getting
a H1 and GC. 

Coming back to where I started -- if a SELF PAID US educated from
OneHorseTown has priority for H1, then H1 can just be auctioned ....
that way most F1s will get it (since they can afford to pay) while
those sitting in third world countrys will not be able to manage the
money. Damn to skills and experience.



&&& I think education is free in India - if one goes to IIT one has to go to a top high school, pay thousands for tutoring, pay hundreds of thousands to study there. I think , it would be impractical to imagine that those who get tech skills in India hail from poor families. I don't get you argument.. If someone came to the US - from a billionaire family in India - say Ratan Tata's nephew going to MIT and then seeking a work visa. Whats wrong with that. And about the one-horse town univ - US immigration should not accept applications from those who graduate from such unaccredited univs such as www.unva.edu 



%%% I see your main grouse is against the IT professionals who lack the degrees in their field. Thats exactly my point. 



**** Nope. My grouse is against ALL who try to exploite the H1 system
and INCLUDE those F1s who pay $$$ to 3 or 4 shady bodyshopper to file
H1, take a 7 day crash course in IT and forge his resume. 

Logically, (and practically as we see from forums), people who have
spend $$$ for education are the ones who has the financial ability to
pay for H1 and sit on bench without pay.



That's why I specifically mentioned WHAT exactly you and other sharp
minds from tier 1 and 2 US Universities should discuss. You do not seem
to be interested in pursuing that .... why ? because it may hurt some
of your fellow F1-H1 aspirants ?


&&& So you are saying that those who graduate from Indian Univs are poor and thus would never sit on the bench if allowed to work in the US, or that if they did have to - they would run back to India. My experience tells me otherwise. Once a person comes to the US on H1B - s/he earns dollaaars. Then, with that money it is easy to stay on the bench-- simple logic -- seen thru experience. 



>>>> All the more reason to give preference in H1B visa
applications to those who have relevant US degrees - most IT people I
know here are US grads with substantial coursework in IT . 



**** So you should not get your H1 since you are not from IT . When are
you cancelling it :) Do you mean to say that there are over 20K foreign
US Masters holders in IT fighting for H1. That is too stretched. 


&&& I think you misread - I said relevant US degrees - not jus IT.


>>Give preference to them , just like give preference to me for
education jobs - over someone who is an IT expert with no degree in
education.



**** Again, I have absolutely no problem when someone with skill and
experience get H1 but it is all wrong when you say that a non IT US
Grad should have preference over a non US IT Grad with (say) 5 years
experience even though the job demands IT skills. 



&&& It is quite easy for a nonUS IT grad to fake work experience -- isn't it. be frank!!



%%% You are right just a US degree is no guarantee of great expertise.
But an IT master's grad from an accredited US univ is likely to be
better than all Indian IT master's grads -as we discussed only a few
Indian undergrad programs are world class - master's and PhD are not. 



***** Not necessarily. For two reasons ... 1) you CANNOT discount the
experience factor. In fact, in US you even find a BA with 20 years
experience becoming an IT Director supervising a IT Grad. Who is more
skilled ?? 2) Not ALL US Schools are equal.



Umesh Sharma



Washington D.C. 



1-202-215-4328 [Cell]



Ed.M. - International Education Policy

Harvard Graduate School of Education,

Harvard University,

Class of 2005



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http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)









www.gse.harvard.edu/iep  (where the above 2 are used )

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