[Assam] H1B innovation? One-Horse US Univs; Loan Crisis Hits the MBA World

[Krishnendu Chakraborty]

Umesh

Good summarization  but I would amend some points --

Forgery for experience is possible for all.  For example,  before coming to US, you worked as an Educational Administrator for sometime in India.  You can definitely use a forged experience letter  and claim that you worked for some  IT company (which is now closed) in some cutting edge technology during that period.   Anyway, we seem to agree on this point.

Top US Univ grads definitely should get preference ... that is why the 20K quota was created.   I believe the 20K quota is enough to cater to top US Univ grads.  

Barring substandard universities from having foreign students is never going to happen.  Foreign students education is a $12 billion  business in US and no one will dare to touch that golden goose. Infact  I do suspect that i near future there will be more added to the 20K Quota (or quota for UnderGrads) .... not that there are lot of jobs (not so at present ... you know)  but  to lure more students to this billion dollar industry.  

I never said all F1's are fraud.  I said that most F1s use that as a stepping stone to H1/GC but hide that "real" intent.  
You seem to support that in your initial post .... people are not interested to come on F1 because the job market in US is dry.

Your argument that US grads should have preference over foreign grads has lot of holes.   While you can argue Indian institutes are far below US institutes based on ranking you cited,  the same ranking  shows that grads from UK, Australia, Hongkong, china etc should definitely have preference over MANY top US universities. And H1 program is equally applicable to all foreign citizens.  Further,  the fact that Umesh Sharma with pure Indian education till Bachelors and MBA and not from a high flying Indian Institute made it to numero uno institute of US  beating his US educated competitors shows that Indian education is not that bad after all.

Indian tech education in a Govt institute costs peanuts compared to even a non-tech UnderGrad course  in US ... there are verifiable data available to support this ... whether you agree or not. 

About the fraud, bench and other info ... my knowledge is based on what I see floating in different immigration forums where people come asking how to get H1 transferred after sitting without pay for months OR how they filed numerous petitions through multiple consultants.  I do not think there is any statistics available on this.  You can check these samples and search more to find similar cases -- 

http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=4234032861&m=1651066581&r=1651066581#1651066581
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=4234032861&m=6841048071&r=6841048071#6841048071
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=4234032861&m=8031047581&r=8031047581#8031047581

Once again, remember the word "Initial bench period" .  

Good discussion but useless .... neither you nor I  can make any change or have a say on the US immigration system




> 
> 
> 
> Krishnendu-da,
> 
> It seems we have come to some agreement and some
> disagreement, neither seem to be disappearing despite emails
> back and forth.
> 
> Agreements: 
> Forgery is possible for edu degrees (mostly for non-US),
> and for work experience (more likely for non-US work
> experience) by grads from everywhere, finances and even
> client sites where they would work when they get the visa.US
> Immigration should stop multiple H1B applications for the
> same applicant by different employers/branches for the same
> company - atleast in the same yearUS immigration should
> differentiate between those having relevant degrees and
> skill level and those who do not. Those who have a
> master's degree in education from Harvard should not get
> an H1B visa to work in IT just becos s/he took a 1 month
> crash course. On the other hand, top US univ grads should be
> considered more skilled than those from Indian univs - if
> both have same degree and similar experience.There is a
> discrepency between F1 student visa and H1B when it comes to
> immigration intent thus making all F1 holders
> "liers" if they seek jobs in the US after they
> graduate.  Such
>  clauses should be removed.some US univs provide
> substandard education, F1 visa seekers having I20 of such
> univs should be rejected and H1B seeking grads from such
> univs should be rejected too. Such univs should be barred
> from seeking foreign students.
> Differences:
>  You think US grads are all frauds who come here to dupe
> the US people and take away their jobs and only a little
> better than the illegals who do not say any lie to any
> immigration officer at all. I disagree.I feel US grads are
> more skilled than their counterparts with Indian degrees
> only and should have preference in securing H1B visas - an
> initiative already in place due to creation of the 20K quota
> . You disagree. 
> I think Indian tech education including that at IITs is
> mostly for middle class and upper middle class Indians - you
> disagree. You think that US grads are more likely to be on
> the bench initially since they can afford to - being richer
> , compared to an Indian grad coming to the US onH1B visa. My
> experience says otherwise.
> I think we should let it be at this point unless, aother
> member wants to share his/her views on the topic.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Umesh
> 
> &&& Okay I agree about the dual intent aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Good that you learnt ! Also noticed that you dropped
> the 'Big Lie'
> from the title ... you apparently learnt that the
> 'lie' is applicable
> only for F1s NOT for H1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&&& Just going to Harvard does not make
> anyone all-knowing God :-)
> 
> 
> 
> ----- And I thought that ALL US educated ones are Skilled
> to take up
> anytype of job :) I mean, damn to job requirement, I am
> better then an
> Indian educated in every job :) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& More power to you. I hope in your family
> noone ever came to the US to study. 
> 
> 
> 
> ----   Immaterial to this discussion .
> 
> 
> 
> &&&&I pray to God that they never get H1B
> work visa or
> Green Card after they come to study here - so that they
> never have to
> lie.
> 
> 
> 
> --- again Immaterial as long as they do not keep whining on
> why I did not get H1 but someone from third world got it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& US immigration accepts and allows US grads
> from other
> countries to apply for H1B - the department doesn't say
> -- Hey, you
> came to the US to study or as a visitor - you cannot apply
> for work
> here.
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Perfect . But that DOES NOT discount the fact that F1
> is a
> Non-Immigrant intent visa. Nor does it change the fact that
> MOST of F1
> comes to US as a stepping stone toward H1 and GC but they
> DO NOT
> disclose that intent.
> 
> 
> 
> &&&& When US is helping the US grads then
> why are you fuming?
> 
> 
> 
> --- Who ? Me ? I thought you started this and you were
> fuming why third
> world guys should get H1 ! I am all for equality but you do
> not seem to
> be happy with that .
> 
> You seem to be all with US Law when they are extending OPT
> to 29 months
> but you are fuming when they allow non-US educated people
> to apply for
> H1. What's the problem ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& Now I think you need education in H1B
> filing. How could
> I have come back to work on H1B in October (as per law I
> cannot start
> work before October) after staying only one month in Canada
> - when I
> have to apply long before that. 
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Perfect . So that shows that your H1 was FILED when
> you were in US
> still on F1. That validates my point that you wanted to use
> F1 as a
> stepping stone to H1 and (maybe) GC.
> 
> 
> 
> &&& Just becos someone says to a visa officer,
> Yes I plan
> to come back and work in India -- ban me forever to seek
> other
> opportunities in your country. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- So what is practical ... Hey I have a Masters in
> Education from US
> but I have attended a 7 day crash course in IT. So that
> makes me more
> IT skilled over someone who has graduated in IT from a
> third country
> and has 5 years experience !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***** The question is who (mis)uses these rules ? Can you
> vouch that
> 
> the F1s never misuses these ? I see it other way all
> throughout forum
> 
> postings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& It should be stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> ---  Good  that we agree .  And once this is stopped, much
> of H1 will be freed up.   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& Dr Smith does not need any US visa. My
> argument was for
> the students who came from other countries and studied
> here. IIT
> doesn't have a single Nobel prize winning researcher -
> never had one.
> Thus, IIT grads should stand below others above them in
> ranking.
> Current world ranking of IIT-Delhi is 154
> 
> 
> http://www.topuniversities.com/schools/data/school_profile/d
> efault/indianinstitutetechnologydelhiiitd
> 
>  I got this thru US News and World Report
> 
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/sections/education/worlds-best-college
> s/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> ---- One Nobel prize winner in one department does not make
> the entire
> school top. You yourself have mentioned that IIT Delhi is
> ranked 154 in
> World. This Mason George is below that even in US per the
> list which
> you pointed. So, the Nobel Prize winner apparently could
> not pull Mason
> Geroge over IIT . So your argument does not hold water.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if Indian education is so far behind US education,
> how did you
> manage to get to Harvard peeping over US edcuated folks who
> sure wanted
> to get to Harvard? I mean, does not Harvard have a pretty
> high bar ? 
> 
> 
> 
> Further , I thought you said that every student in these
> Tier 1,2,3 are
> super brilliant and doing cutting edge research . So
> logically all of
> them should get O visa ... right ?
> 
> Finally, just to inform you H1 program can be used by
> people of ALL
> countrys .. not only Indians. I have a co-wroker from
> Hungary and
> another from Phillipines and they are on H1. Sure, schools
> in other
> countries (at least European countries) have Nobel
> laureauts, if that
> is your criteria. 
> 
> For example, I can see Cambridge and Oxford right after
> Harvard and
> Yale in your list. But thore are not in US. So, per your
> logic, a grad
> from Cambridge or Oxford is less skilled then someone from
> (say) Mason
> George !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ****** Hmmm... an absurd logic. What about the forged
> experience by US
> 
> Grads. And what about the lie on immigration intent they
> started their
> 
> journey in US with ? With this logic, F1's should never
> be granted H1
> 
> because they lied to a US Visa officer.
> 
> 
> 
> There are Visa Officers  whose job is to detect such
> forgery.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& Perhaps visa officers should have lie
> detectors placed
> alongside - check the pulse and heartbeat!! What about
> those who really
> were telling the truth and still decided to stay on in the
> US and seek
> work.
> 
> 
> 
> -- You read wrong. The discussion was about forgery. The
> VO's job is to
> detect that .. for H1 aspirants if there Degree and
> experience are
> faked ; for F1 aspirants if their financial statements are
> faked. And
> the VO does that with a fairly good accuracy as I see from
> the forums.
> However, SOME H1s do make it with forged experience/degree
> just the way
> SOME F1 make it with forged Financial Statements. Do you
> say that no F1
> should be granted because SOME F1 forges documents ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& I think education is free in India 
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Indeed . It is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive in India
> if you do not
> go to those capitation fee colleges. For example, the fees
> for Govt
> colleges in Assam (including the most reputed Cotton
> College) runs to
> less then a thousand rupees per year. Compare that to your
> $50,000 and
> you will see the difference. Definitely I am not comparing
> Cotton to
> Harvard but even a very low grade school in US will cost
> MUCH more then
> that.
> 
> Even for the tech colleges in other parts of India, the
> cost in Govt
> run ones are less then Rs50K for whole academic at most ...
> no where
> close to $50K 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& if one goes to IIT one has to go to a top
> high school,
> pay thousands for tutoring, pay hundreds of thousands to
> study there. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Is it ? you mean every IIT graduate went to schools
> where the fees
> are in hundreds of thousands. I thought we have quite a few
> IIT
> graduates in this forum and all of them did their schooling
> in Assam
> which does not have even a single school (even today) which
> charges
> hundreds of thousands. Further, if someone can spend that
> much amount
> for high school education, why would he/she go to low
> ranking
> (according to you) IIT. They can very well study in some
> Tier 3 US
> school, right ?
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the IIT education is not too expensive as I know. The
> fees
> including mess runs to around 65K per year and their are
> generous
> scholarships.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&&I think , it would be impractical to imagine
> that those who get tech skills in India hail from poor
> families.
> 
> 
> 
> --- you know little about India ... 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& I don't get you argument.. If someone
> came to the US -
> from a billionaire family in India - say Ratan Tata's
> nephew going to
> MIT and then seeking a work visa. Whats wrong with that. 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Nothing wrong as long as he says 'I want it
> all' and 'I want those
> Indian educated guys to be treated second class' .
> That's exactly what
> you are asking for.
> 
> 
> 
> &&&And about the one-horse town univ - US
> immigration
> should not accept applications from those who graduate from
> such
> unaccredited univs such as www.unva.edu 
> 
> 
> 
> ---  Onehorsetown univ are not necessarily all
> unaccredited.  Not all accredited Univ are great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& So you are saying that those who graduate
> from Indian
> Univs are poor and thus would never sit on the bench if
> allowed to work
> in the US, or that if they did have to - they would run
> back to India.
> My experience tells me otherwise. Once a person comes to
> the US on H1B
> - s/he earns dollaaars. Then, with that money it is easy to
> stay on the
> bench-- simple logic -- seen thru experience. 
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Your logic is perfect. But read carefully . In my
> earlier posting
> I said "The initial bench period is mostly observed
> either those from
> F1 -- H1 OR from H4 -- H1. For others, the initial bench is
> pretty low
> .... it becomes more of a problem when they are in between
> projects. "
> 
> Note the word INITIAL Bench. Apparently, a H1 from India
> will not have
> $$$ when he arrives, but an F1-H1 can afford that since he
> had the
> financial capability to study here. Further to that, an H1
> from India
> has no reason to land in US and wait for a project.
> Nowadays , many
> interviews are done over phone and the H1 holder can take
> that from
> India as well. On the other hand, the F1-H1 is already in
> US and will
> wait on bench to get a Project.
> 
> 
> 
> If a person has the money required to study in US AND he
> wants to get
> H1, why would he study in India? He can very well study in
> US and join
> people like you who say H1 should be closed for others.
> Sure you don't
> mean that only the brightest get admitted to any damn US
> school :) 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& I think you misread - I said relevant US
> degrees - not jus IT.
> 
> 
> 
> --- You said "most IT people I know here are US grads
> with substantial
> coursework in IT" And since you appear to agree that
> most opening is in
> IT (someone told you he can sponsor your H1 if you are in
> IT), the
> logical conclusion is MOST H1 aspirants have graduated in
> IT.
> 
> 
> 
> >>Give preference to them , just like give preference
> to me for
> 
> education jobs - over someone who is an IT expert with no
> degree in
> 
> education.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **** Again, I have absolutely no problem when someone with
> skill and
> 
> experience get H1 but it is all wrong when you say that a
> non IT US
> 
> Grad should have preference over a non US IT Grad with
> (say) 5 years
> 
> experience even though the job demands IT skills. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &&& It is quite easy for a nonUS IT grad to
> fake work experience -- isn't it. be frank!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Sure ... but so it is for a US IT/non-IT Grad. What is
> the
> difference ? Faking experience and forged degree are not
> the same.
> 
> Also, most Indian H1 are picked up by companies like TCS,
> Infy etc. And
> the hiring process in these companies have a very strong
> backgound
> check. I know you will come up with Satyam but the Satyam
> CEO's
> activities do not have anything to do with the Recruitment
> process. I
> know this first hand because I have been closely associated
> with hiring
> process in one of the major IT company and have seen people
> being
> rejected after background check.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was rather sad to see that you avoided discussing most
> important
> points --- like exploiting the H1 system by some people
> INCLUDING those
> F1s who pay $$$ to 3 or 4 shady bodyshopper to file H1,
> take a 7 day
> crash course in IT and forge resume.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not see any problem if genuine skilled and experienced
> people get
> H1 be it US educated or foreign educated but your rant
> seems to be that
> ALL US edcuated ones should get H1... irrespective of they
> have skill ,
> they have the necessary experience OR their is a job
> requirement in
> their field of study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Umesh Sharma
> 
> 
> 
> Washington D.C. 
> 
> 
> 
> 1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
> 
> 
> 
> Ed.M. - International Education Policy
> 
> Harvard Graduate School of Education,
> 
> Harvard University,
> 
> Class of 2005
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
> 
> 

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