[Assam] H1B innovation? One-Horse US Univs; Loan Crisis Hits the MBA World

Wed Feb 4 21:17:45 PST 2009

Krishnendu-da,

It seems we have come to some agreement and some disagreement, neither seem to be disappearing despite emails back and forth.

Agreements: 
Forgery is possible for edu degrees (mostly for non-US), and for work experience (more likely for non-US work experience) by grads from everywhere, finances and even client sites where they would work when they get the visa.US Immigration should stop multiple H1B applications for the same applicant by different employers/branches for the same company - atleast in the same yearUS immigration should differentiate between those having relevant degrees and skill level and those who do not. Those who have a master's degree in education from Harvard should not get an H1B visa to work in IT just becos s/he took a 1 month crash course. On the other hand, top US univ grads should be considered more skilled than those from Indian univs - if both have same degree and similar experience.There is a discrepency between F1 student visa and H1B when it comes to immigration intent thus making all F1 holders "liers" if they seek jobs in the US after they graduate.  Such
 clauses should be removed.some US univs provide substandard education, F1 visa seekers having I20 of such univs should be rejected and H1B seeking grads from such univs should be rejected too. Such univs should be barred from seeking foreign students.
Differences:
 You think US grads are all frauds who come here to dupe the US people and take away their jobs and only a little better than the illegals who do not say any lie to any immigration officer at all. I disagree.I feel US grads are more skilled than their counterparts with Indian degrees only and should have preference in securing H1B visas - an initiative already in place due to creation of the 20K quota . You disagree. 
I think Indian tech education including that at IITs is mostly for middle class and upper middle class Indians - you disagree. You think that US grads are more likely to be on the bench initially since they can afford to - being richer , compared to an Indian grad coming to the US onH1B visa. My experience says otherwise.
I think we should let it be at this point unless, aother member wants to share his/her views on the topic.

Regards.

Umesh

&&& Okay I agree about the dual intent aspect.

---- Good that you learnt ! Also noticed that you dropped the 'Big Lie'
from the title ... you apparently learnt that the 'lie' is applicable
only for F1s NOT for H1.

&&&& Just going to Harvard does not make anyone all-knowing God :-)

----- And I thought that ALL US educated ones are Skilled to take up
anytype of job :) I mean, damn to job requirement, I am better then an
Indian educated in every job :) 

&&& More power to you. I hope in your family noone ever came to the US to study. 

----   Immaterial to this discussion .

&&&&I pray to God that they never get H1B work visa or
Green Card after they come to study here - so that they never have to
lie.

--- again Immaterial as long as they do not keep whining on why I did not get H1 but someone from third world got it.

&&& US immigration accepts and allows US grads from other
countries to apply for H1B - the department doesn't say -- Hey, you
came to the US to study or as a visitor - you cannot apply for work
here.

---- Perfect . But that DOES NOT discount the fact that F1 is a
Non-Immigrant intent visa. Nor does it change the fact that MOST of F1
comes to US as a stepping stone toward H1 and GC but they DO NOT
disclose that intent.

&&&& When US is helping the US grads then why are you fuming?

--- Who ? Me ? I thought you started this and you were fuming why third
world guys should get H1 ! I am all for equality but you do not seem to
be happy with that .

You seem to be all with US Law when they are extending OPT to 29 months
but you are fuming when they allow non-US educated people to apply for
H1. What's the problem ?

&&& Now I think you need education in H1B filing. How could
I have come back to work on H1B in October (as per law I cannot start
work before October) after staying only one month in Canada - when I
have to apply long before that. 

---- Perfect . So that shows that your H1 was FILED when you were in US
still on F1. That validates my point that you wanted to use F1 as a
stepping stone to H1 and (maybe) GC.

&&& Just becos someone says to a visa officer, Yes I plan
to come back and work in India -- ban me forever to seek other
opportunities in your country. 

--- So what is practical ... Hey I have a Masters in Education from US
but I have attended a 7 day crash course in IT. So that makes me more
IT skilled over someone who has graduated in IT from a third country
and has 5 years experience !

***** The question is who (mis)uses these rules ? Can you vouch that

the F1s never misuses these ? I see it other way all throughout forum

postings.

&&& It should be stopped.

---  Good  that we agree .  And once this is stopped, much of H1 will be freed up.   

&&& Dr Smith does not need any US visa. My argument was for
the students who came from other countries and studied here. IIT
doesn't have a single Nobel prize winning researcher - never had one.
Thus, IIT grads should stand below others above them in ranking.
Current world ranking of IIT-Delhi is 154

 http://www.topuniversities.com/schools/data/school_profile/d efault/indianinstitutetechnologydelhiiitd

 I got this thru US News and World Report

 http://www.usnews.com/sections/education/worlds-best-college s/index.html

---- One Nobel prize winner in one department does not make the entire
school top. You yourself have mentioned that IIT Delhi is ranked 154 in
World. This Mason George is below that even in US per the list which
you pointed. So, the Nobel Prize winner apparently could not pull Mason
Geroge over IIT . So your argument does not hold water.

Also, if Indian education is so far behind US education, how did you
manage to get to Harvard peeping over US edcuated folks who sure wanted
to get to Harvard? I mean, does not Harvard have a pretty high bar ? 

Further , I thought you said that every student in these Tier 1,2,3 are
super brilliant and doing cutting edge research . So logically all of
them should get O visa ... right ?

Finally, just to inform you H1 program can be used by people of ALL
countrys .. not only Indians. I have a co-wroker from Hungary and
another from Phillipines and they are on H1. Sure, schools in other
countries (at least European countries) have Nobel laureauts, if that
is your criteria. 

For example, I can see Cambridge and Oxford right after Harvard and
Yale in your list. But thore are not in US. So, per your logic, a grad
from Cambridge or Oxford is less skilled then someone from (say) Mason
George !

****** Hmmm... an absurd logic. What about the forged experience by US

Grads. And what about the lie on immigration intent they started their

journey in US with ? With this logic, F1's should never be granted H1

because they lied to a US Visa officer.

There are Visa Officers  whose job is to detect such forgery.  

&&& Perhaps visa officers should have lie detectors placed
alongside - check the pulse and heartbeat!! What about those who really
were telling the truth and still decided to stay on in the US and seek
work.

-- You read wrong. The discussion was about forgery. The VO's job is to
detect that .. for H1 aspirants if there Degree and experience are
faked ; for F1 aspirants if their financial statements are faked. And
the VO does that with a fairly good accuracy as I see from the forums.
However, SOME H1s do make it with forged experience/degree just the way
SOME F1 make it with forged Financial Statements. Do you say that no F1
should be granted because SOME F1 forges documents ?

&&& I think education is free in India 

---- Indeed . It is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive in India if you do not
go to those capitation fee colleges. For example, the fees for Govt
colleges in Assam (including the most reputed Cotton College) runs to
less then a thousand rupees per year. Compare that to your $50,000 and
you will see the difference. Definitely I am not comparing Cotton to
Harvard but even a very low grade school in US will cost MUCH more then
that.

Even for the tech colleges in other parts of India, the cost in Govt
run ones are less then Rs50K for whole academic at most ... no where
close to $50K 

&&& if one goes to IIT one has to go to a top high school,
pay thousands for tutoring, pay hundreds of thousands to study there. 

--- Is it ? you mean every IIT graduate went to schools where the fees
are in hundreds of thousands. I thought we have quite a few IIT
graduates in this forum and all of them did their schooling in Assam
which does not have even a single school (even today) which charges
hundreds of thousands. Further, if someone can spend that much amount
for high school education, why would he/she go to low ranking
(according to you) IIT. They can very well study in some Tier 3 US
school, right ?

BTW, the IIT education is not too expensive as I know. The fees
including mess runs to around 65K per year and their are generous
scholarships.

&&&I think , it would be impractical to imagine that those who get tech skills in India hail from poor families.

--- you know little about India ... 

&&& I don't get you argument.. If someone came to the US -
from a billionaire family in India - say Ratan Tata's nephew going to
MIT and then seeking a work visa. Whats wrong with that. 

--- Nothing wrong as long as he says 'I want it all' and 'I want those
Indian educated guys to be treated second class' . That's exactly what
you are asking for.

&&&And about the one-horse town univ - US immigration
should not accept applications from those who graduate from such
unaccredited univs such as www.unva.edu 

---  Onehorsetown univ are not necessarily all unaccredited.  Not all accredited Univ are great.

&&& So you are saying that those who graduate from Indian
Univs are poor and thus would never sit on the bench if allowed to work
in the US, or that if they did have to - they would run back to India.
My experience tells me otherwise. Once a person comes to the US on H1B
- s/he earns dollaaars. Then, with that money it is easy to stay on the
bench-- simple logic -- seen thru experience. 

---- Your logic is perfect. But read carefully . In my earlier posting
I said "The initial bench period is mostly observed either those from
F1 -- H1 OR from H4 -- H1. For others, the initial bench is pretty low
.... it becomes more of a problem when they are in between projects. "

Note the word INITIAL Bench. Apparently, a H1 from India will not have
$$$ when he arrives, but an F1-H1 can afford that since he had the
financial capability to study here. Further to that, an H1 from India
has no reason to land in US and wait for a project. Nowadays , many
interviews are done over phone and the H1 holder can take that from
India as well. On the other hand, the F1-H1 is already in US and will
wait on bench to get a Project.

If a person has the money required to study in US AND he wants to get
H1, why would he study in India? He can very well study in US and join
people like you who say H1 should be closed for others. Sure you don't
mean that only the brightest get admitted to any damn US school :) 

&&& I think you misread - I said relevant US degrees - not jus IT.

--- You said "most IT people I know here are US grads with substantial
coursework in IT" And since you appear to agree that most opening is in
IT (someone told you he can sponsor your H1 if you are in IT), the
logical conclusion is MOST H1 aspirants have graduated in IT.

>>Give preference to them , just like give preference to me for

education jobs - over someone who is an IT expert with no degree in

education.

**** Again, I have absolutely no problem when someone with skill and

experience get H1 but it is all wrong when you say that a non IT US

Grad should have preference over a non US IT Grad with (say) 5 years

experience even though the job demands IT skills. 

&&& It is quite easy for a nonUS IT grad to fake work experience -- isn't it. be frank!!

---- Sure ... but so it is for a US IT/non-IT Grad. What is the
difference ? Faking experience and forged degree are not the same.

Also, most Indian H1 are picked up by companies like TCS, Infy etc. And
the hiring process in these companies have a very strong backgound
check. I know you will come up with Satyam but the Satyam CEO's
activities do not have anything to do with the Recruitment process. I
know this first hand because I have been closely associated with hiring
process in one of the major IT company and have seen people being
rejected after background check.

I was rather sad to see that you avoided discussing most important
points --- like exploiting the H1 system by some people INCLUDING those
F1s who pay $$$ to 3 or 4 shady bodyshopper to file H1, take a 7 day
crash course in IT and forge resume.

I do not see any problem if genuine skilled and experienced people get
H1 be it US educated or foreign educated but your rant seems to be that
ALL US edcuated ones should get H1... irrespective of they have skill ,
they have the necessary experience OR their is a job requirement in
their field of study.

Umesh Sharma

Washington D.C. 

1-202-215-4328 [Cell]

Ed.M. - International Education Policy

Harvard Graduate School of Education,

Harvard University,

Class of 2005

http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)

www.gse.harvard.edu/iep  (where the above 2 are used )

http://harvardscience.harvard.edu/

http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/