[Assam] poem and news : The true story about encounters with Maoist in West Bengal

Fri Jun 25 20:57:39 PDT 2010

>>>Yes, only in India, which can accommodate extremes. Try that in China,
Vietnam or Cuba .....and you will be in for a Tiannaman Square shock. Even<<<

That's why,
Communism = government control.
Democracy = citizen control.
KJD
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hehee!
>
> Ain't this all a hoot?
>
> We are talking about Communism in India. The Naxal movement (as started in
> Naxalbari) did start with land ownerships, landlords, and yes, often the
> ownerships of small farmers and laborers usurped by money lenders, the state
> govt.s,and yes big corporations.
>
> (They all start off with the right notes)
>
> Now, let's look at the real picture.
>
> The Communism as preached by Marx, Engels, Mao etc are only taken at face
> value by 'Indian Communists'. Yes, they all preach that language, but in
> practice are no better or worse than any other other corrupt politician.
>
> Even the old Soviet Union & China of today follow nothing close to a
> democracy. If people believe that the Chinese system is similar to or akin
> to any other democracy, then I am really, really at a loss of words :-)
>
> In India, let us take West Bengal: Jyoti Basu (JB)was the CM for so many
> decades. Have the land ownership problems become better? All JB did was to
> amass huge wealth (Brittaina Biscuits comes to mind) - so much for thinking
> about  the common folks. Then along comes Mamata Banerji (Tirnamool) -
> fighting for the common folks' land rights, and in the process managed to
> run off Big Tata and jobs to Gujarat.
>
> The BIG difference between Indian communists/Naxals and the other parties
> (generally) is that these Naxals start off with a bang (literally), killing
> people along the way to make a point. Then they get elected, and start
> preaching democracy and its values, and become everyday, run-o the-mill,
> politician.
>
> In a way, you are correct, C'da. Communism and Democracy are very close -
> this "power sharing"  & 'representing the people' bidness. The only problem
> is, as I stated before those who use violence as a means to power, are not
> very likely to give it that easily.
>
> Right now, in India only a few states can boast Communism, and so they abide
> by the rules of the country. But if all of India were to ever go that far
> left, the same people who are rooting for them now, will be the first to
> whine about losing freedom of speech, movement, & thought.
>
>>Therefore the two are NOT mutually EXCLUSIVE. Communism can co-exist WITH
> democracy
>
> Yes, only in India, which can accommodate extremes. Try that in China,
> Vietnam or Cuba .....and you will be in for a Tiannaman Square shock. Even
> Google can't operate in China.
>
>
>>Now if we look at ONE of the ROOT CAUSES of the Naxalite movements of
> Central India, it IS about PROPERTY RIGHTS,
>
> And have these been resolved in Kerala and West Bengal - these states have
> been on the far left for a long, long time? What gives?
>
> --Ram
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Excellent point.
>>
>> Bot  Ram and Kamal have mouthed off about democracy and communism, without
>> having a clue about what they are:
>>
>>        :Democracy a political system in which the supreme power lies in a
>> body of citizens who can elect people to represent them
>>        :Communism is a social structure in which, theoretically, classes
>> are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well
>>                as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates
>> and aims to create such a society.
>>
>> The above are some of the MANY definitions of the two. There are other
>> definitions, but for all practical purposes, they are in the same track.
>>
>> Therefore the two are NOT mutually EXCLUSIVE. Communism can co-exist WITH
>> democracy. A communist system of governance CAN
>> ELECT their representatives in government democratically. The fundamental
>> difference between a communisitic system and a capitalistic one lies in
>> PROPERTY RIGHTS.
>>
>> Now if we look at ONE of the ROOT CAUSES of the Naxalite movements of
>> Central India, it IS about PROPERTY RIGHTS, except it it is in the complete
>> OPPOSITE of what Ram and Kamal have been wailing about. The indigenous
>> people of these regions are fighting to preserve THEIR property rights
>> over their ancestral land and mineral rights, that the Indian government
>> has USURPED and then given them away to CORPORATIONS to the detriment of the
>> people who have lived on from time immemorial.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Dilip and Dil Deka wrote:
>>
>>  Kamal,
>>> Yes, I believe you are way off the mark.
>>> "Aren't communism and democracy the opposite sides of the same coin? It
>>> means that both of them are diametrically opposite. Or,am I way way
>>> off the mark?"   ------ When you say same coin- what is the coin? Please
>>> define the coin. Dictatorship and Democracy are diametrically opposite but
>>> not Communism and Democracy.  Is Communism the same as Dictatorship - I
>>> don't think so. It happens that way in many cases but it was not designed to
>>> be that way.
>>> The idea of communism was to share as is Democracy's. It is the
>>> interpretation and execution of the principles that created the
>>> transformations.
>>> So, it depends on whether you are a purist or  not, to support one form of
>>> ideology or the other.
>>>
>>> Remember I am a fundamentalist when it comes to political thoughts.
>>>
>>> Dilipda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kamal deka <kjit.deka at gmail.com>
>>> To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from around the world <
>>> assam at assamnet.org>
>>> Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 7:01:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Assam] poem and news : The true story about encounters with
>>> Maoist in West Bengal
>>>
>>>  But, I was wrong, actually the Communists would be worse than Indira. IG
>>>>>>
>>>>> gave up her PM seat after she lost the election. There was at least a
>>> hint<<<
>>>
>>> RS,
>>> Well done.
>>>
>>> You know, Indira Gandhi was the darling of the nation when she whacked
>>> Yahya Khan and dismembered Pakistan in 1971. There was no doubt that
>>> she had nerves of steel. But it all came to nought when she imposed
>>> the dictatorial Emergency four years later, in flagrant defiance of
>>> the public mood.  Durga became a demon overnight and the electorate
>>> turned its back on her. The Congress was booted out and she herself
>>> was defeated. India said No to Mrs Gandhi and her politics of the
>>> Emergency.
>>>
>>> Aren't communism and democracy the opposite sides of the same coin? It
>>> means that both of them are diametrically opposite. Or,am I way way
>>> off the mark?
>>> KJD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Ram Sarangapani <assamrs at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Uttam,
>>>>
>>>>  Could anyone use/ incite Rameswars if they were otherwise comfortable?
>>>>> Could you hatch chicken from stones?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The argument could have been valid, IF Rameshwar's life was improved. Not
>>>> if
>>>> if the actions of these 'saviours' (Naxals or for that matter ULFA) makes
>>>> the situation worse, and in many cases causing death/injury to the very
>>>> people they purport to be saving. With friends like these Naxals or ULFA
>>>> (for the Rameshwars of the world), who needs enemies?
>>>>
>>>>  Second, why do you have to think that Naxals and Maoists would be like
>>>>>
>>>> Indira, the dictator?
>>>>
>>>> Right!. IG was elected, and then became a dictator (at least during the
>>>> emergency), and these groups, use violence as a means to achieving their
>>>> Communist agenda.
>>>>
>>>> But, I was wrong, actually the Communists would be worse than Indira. IG
>>>> gave up her PM seat after she lost the election. There was at least a
>>>> hint
>>>> of democracy in her. She could have just stated she wasn't giving up the
>>>> throne, and most people who matter in India would have been singing
>>>> praises
>>>> and writing poems.
>>>>
>>>> And you think, once the Naxals get a hold of power, they are going to
>>>> give
>>>> up that easily. They get their power thru violence, and what makes you
>>>> think
>>>> they would NOT use violence again to hold on to it? This is the same
>>>> argument that goes against the likes of ULFA.
>>>>
>>>>  The Chinese Communists have become good capitalists, even lending the US
>>>>>
>>>> money albeit to make the bubble burst?
>>>>
>>>> Don't know where this fits in? BUT Lending money to the US - yes, through
>>>> USD holdings. The US has been giving the Chinese MFN (Most Favored
>>>> Nation)
>>>> status to export goods/services for a long time. The US market is flooded
>>>> with Chinese made goods. The MFN is one of the most coveted awards the US
>>>> dishes out. That alone, it can be argued, can catapult a country like
>>>> China
>>>> into prominence and an economic power - and today, they are EVEN in a
>>>> position to help the US.
>>>>
>>>>  The Maoist Prachanda (who raged a armed rebellion) has given up on arms
>>>>>
>>>> even to let others rule
>>>>
>>>>> even when his is the single largest party, in conformity with democratic
>>>>>
>>>> norms, not usually followed by our BJPs/ Congresses.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know this person. But what on earth is a Maoist doing following
>>>> Democratic norms? So, from this example, we ought to just let let
>>>> violence
>>>> these groups perpetrate go unabated - hoping (against hope) that they all
>>>> give up arms, let others rule, and even follow democracy?
>>>>
>>>> C'mon Uttam... does this really make sense? :-)
>>>>
>>>>  Pray, why this prejudice, the knee-jerk reaction? The days of
>>>>> iron/bamboo
>>>>>
>>>> curtains are quite over.
>>>>
>>>> Not really. Look at some history. Through numerous trials and errors, the
>>>> world has generally accepted democracy as a true and tested form of
>>>> governance. There are a few different forms of democracy (the British and
>>>> US
>>>> systems differ, and so does Japan), but in general, most countries follow
>>>> a
>>>> system close as possible to democracy.
>>>> Yes, there are problems, specially in a country like India, and it takes
>>>> time, and a nation and her people often needs to mature. India's
>>>> experience
>>>> with democracy is only 60 odd years - compared to the Brits and the US.
>>>>
>>>> As far as those other systems go - those have been successful, only if
>>>> one
>>>> thinks that the people in China, Vietnam and Cuba are a free people with
>>>> independent thought and action? Otherwise, they are total failures.
>>>> As for these ultra groups, their goals, methods, and promises, the less
>>>> said, the better.
>>>>
>>>> If any of the other isms you cite were that good, the world over people
>>>> would have been embracing them. Those systems can be enforced only by
>>>> force.
>>>> Do we want that?
>>>>
>>>>  The Naxals/ Maoists may turn out to be good democrats, who knows? Else
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>> will lose the fight,
>>>>
>>>>> due to lack of people's support; if they are wrong PC does not even have
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>> raise a finger. They will
>>>>
>>>>> crumble due to their own foibles that you so clearly find in them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't where we are headed?
>>>>
>>>> Naxals/Maoists are perpetrating all this violence, so that they can
>>>> establish a good Democracy? You are kidding, right?
>>>>
>>>> Why don't they just become 'democrats' to start with :-)
>>>>
>>>> --Ram da
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 4:49 AM, UTTAM BORTHAKUR <
>>>> uttamborthakur at yahoo.co.in
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Ram Da,
>>>>>
>>>>> Could anyone use/ incite Rameswars if they were otherwise comfortable?
>>>>> Could you hatch chicken from stones?
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, why do you have to think that Naxals and Maoists would be like
>>>>> Indira, the dictator?
>>>>> The Chinese Communists have become good capitalists, even lending the US
>>>>> money albeit to
>>>>> make the bubble burst?
>>>>> The Euro communists are not demonic the way you paint the communists.
>>>>> Our CPM is quite docile; even supports the UPA.
>>>>> The Maoist Prachanda (who raged a armed rebellion) has given up on arms
>>>>> even
>>>>> to let others rule
>>>>> even when his is the single largest party, in conformity with democratic
>>>>> norms,
>>>>> not usually followed by our BJPs/ Congresses.
>>>>> Pray, why this prejudice, the knee-jerk reaction? The days of
>>>>> iron/bamboo
>>>>> curtains are quite over.
>>>>> The Naxals/ Maoists may turn out to be good democrats, who knows? Else
>>>>> they
>>>>> will lose the fight,
>>>>> due to lack of people's support; if they are wrong PC does not even have
>>>>> to
>>>>> raise a finger. They will
>>>>> crumble due to their own foibles that you so clearly find in them.
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>>>>>
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